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Walter,
I agree with Bob that running all of the mainsail controls (halyard, reef lines, etc) back to the cockpit is not really practical and from my point of view not desirable. I used to race on a friend's Sweden Yacht 38 which had all the lines lead to stoppers on the coach roof accessible from the cockpit. But that was a racing design with the assumption you had a full crew of 5 or more, one of whom spent his/her entire time on deck. It was not practical to raise the halyards from the cockpit. We always had a mast person who pumped the halyard until it was within a few feet of the desired hoist and then another crew member in the cockpit who cranked it home.
That said if you want to rig something like you describe you'll probably need to start with a mast plate to provide attachment points for the turning blocks necessary to run the lines back to the cockpit. Garhauer makes a number of them (http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=68). I've attached a picture of the plate on my friends Sweden Yacht 38. That was probably made by Selden, but it looks just like the Grahauer ones.
If you wondering about the level of deterioration in the lines on this boat there is a life lesson there. We raced this boat to Bermuda twice, Newport, RI once and numerous Governor's Cup races on the Bay. In the mid 90's my friend went middle age crazy and at the age of 55 went through a divorce, then re-married and started a new family. He owns the marina where I keep Sarah at this time. I expect I'll see him once this spring he will re-commission Saker (but not replace those badly worn lines), state for the umpteenth time he is really going sailing this summer. Then I'll see him in the fall when he returns to winterize once more. Nothing to do with rigging the sail control lines, but something to ponder.On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi Alan,
Yes, my vang, a simple 5 part tackle, runs to the cockpit – as all 'sail trim control' lines should. I am, however, going to replace it with a Garhauer hard vang. Next year. Anyway, the lines run through turning blocks to a double cheek block outboard of the midships hatch, back through another cheek block to a line break under the dodger.
Bob
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:33 AM, alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Bob,
Do you have your vang line running to the cockpit?
What type of vang are you using? Attachment points?
Anyone else care to chime in here?
alan— Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi Walter,
The solution is why we are all ordering mast
pulpits. You could use all
sorts of turning blocks to run down the side of the
cabin, but that's ugly
and it's inefficient.The best of all solutions if you can't bring ALL the
lines back to the
cockpit (and trust me, you can't) is to leave them
all at the mast and
boom. There is nothing harder to do than reef in
bad weather by running
(crawling) back and forth to the cockpit to manage
lines.For this boat, make the halyards internal – giving
you two jib and two main
halyards. Install small line brakes on the mast and
boom for your reefing
lines/halyards so that you don't have cleats all
over the place (that's what
I'm going to do). Make sure that the reefing lines
are all on the same side
of the boom for the reef you're taking (if you're
using single line reefing
that's already done).Make sure you have a method of attaching yourself to
the mast or near the
mast for working there in a seaway and that there is
a way to keep the lines
orderly.The only lines I can see coming back to the cockpit
should be the boom
vang, the mainsheet, and the main traveler lines.Failing that, of course, you can close up the
midships companionway and then
you have all the room in the world for running lines
aft.The key to remember when thinking about rigging the
boat, especially for
shorthanded sailing, is how much can you get done in
one place, be it the
cockpit or the mast. In my last boat, running lines
to the coach roof was
easy, and well designed originally by Ericson.
There were 4 self tailing
winches and 10 line brakes. The Pearson was
designed to be a much simpler
rig to control without much consideration for
shorthanded sailing (in 1978,
a 42' boat wasn't considered a singlehander…)So, my final comment is: Do it at the mast.
Tada!
Bob
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16 AM,
< ([email][/email])> wrote:i was thinking about running my main halyard and
reefing lines back to
the cockpit, but our deck layout does not provide
an obvious solution.
Has anyone found a solution that they care to
share?
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http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Thanks, Bob.
That gives me something to experiment with for a few days. I do want the system to allow me to close reach (not close haul) with the Staysail (no Genoa) and also set the storm jib on the same system. I just couldn't get my mind around. I think the sheeting eye system you like will also do best for what I want. It seems to me that the double eye system will always want to pull the clew toward the centerline eliminating any control over twist (the upper part of th sail will fall off and luff and the lower part will be stalled). I definitely need to do some experimentation. Come on Spring!On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 8:54 PM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi John,
There are a couple of ways to do this. One is a single eye just forward of the mast that you use a two part system with the final part running back to the cockpit. The other way is to use two eyes with a line between them ending on one side going through the clew and a block and back to the cockpit.
Remember, the staysail isn't necessarily trimmed like the jib, or even used close hauled (you couldn't trim the jib and staysail properly.
So slightly off the wind (footing) either system would work. I like the double part, single eye method because it allows twisting the sail when closehauled.
Bob
On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 7:36 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Bob Fine & others,
Bob, a few months back we had a discussion about sheeting the Staysail on an inner-forestay. I think I recall (now I see the value of a seachable forum) you described the sheeting you have on Pelican that allows you to trim your staysail with a single sheet in the cockpit.
Well, I've now have my re-cut Staysail which no longer overlaps the main mast and I'm trying to design the sheeting for this sail. I would definitely like to have a single sheet coming aft to a rope clutch on the port side of the coach roof so I can use the main sheet winch to trim the sail. I just can't figure out how to do this without a traveler or a deck boom (ala Hoyt jib boom) neither of which are practical given I keep my dinghy on deck.
I can always just route 2 sheets back to the cockpit and trim the staysail with the Genoa winches, but I'd really like to avoid adding more spaghetti in the cockpit and I'd like to be able to set both the Staysail and Genoa (or Spinnaker) under the right circumstances.
Was I correct in my understanding that you have a sheeting system that will do what I want?
—
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John Stevenson
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Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kidding—
Regards,
John Stevenson
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Chuck,
Excellent looking design. One question though – Do you have any concerns about having the pickup well off the centerline when the boat heels to port?Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Adam,
For the original Bomar cast aluminum hatches, the Lewmar Ocean hatches are nearly a drop-in replacement. You will have to do a little sanding of the wooden frames below the hatches, but no fiberglass work. I went with the Lemar hatches and they have served me will for over 7 years. When I replaced my hatches Bomar still made the same cast aluminum hatches, but I hate the splindly dogs that take for ever to loosen or tighten. If you don’t get the dogs tightened just right the hatches leak.
Again at the time I was replacing my hatches Bomar had a very good looking extruded aluminum hatch, but (go figure) it was not a drop-in replacement for the old hatches. So Lewmar got my business rather than Bomar.
I haven’t looked at either line of hatches for over 7 years.John
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John Stevenson
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Rich,
I've definitely experienced weather that was too cold, but seldom weather that is too hot. When it is really hot I just jump over the side and cool off. Of course that means leaving the Chesapeake after July 1 or donning a jelly suit.On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Rich Carter <
(<email address>)> wrote: John
I've heard that weather from the Chessapeake to points south can be less than tolerable in late summer. I guess that's why folks with time on their hands migrate up and down the coast.I've got a day-job that keeps me tied to the Northeast. Maybe when I'm retired I can join the migrating herd.
Rich
From: John Stevenson [mailto:
(<email address>)]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:48 PMTo: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chestRich,
Sounds like one more reason to head south. Winter is just about over here on the Chesapeake. I can't wait to put my winter clothes back in vacuum sealed plastic. Hopefully they never come out of those bags.On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Rich Carter <
( One thing to watch out for with PVC; I plumbed the cockpit drains in my old sailboat with PVC. Water froze in the pipes and they shattered. This wouldn't be an issue in warmer climates, but it could be in colder cruising areas. You should be OK if the pipes are in the bilge, but I'd be cautious of using the stuff where it might get cold.
Rich
From: Robert Fine [mailto:
( Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:06 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chestHonestly, Tor, I'm glad you tried it – frankly I had the same idea…
I love PVC! With the exception of long runs over flexible surfaces, it's great. I'd redo the whole boat in it if I had the time and , well, the inclination.
I'd love to see how you fare with the PVC thing.
BOb
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Silver Heels <
("> Hi Bob,
I've already done what you describe for the shower sump – a simple strainer and pump, with the switch by the shower stall – and I'm happy with it. It only lacks a plastic grate in the stall to keep my feet out of the water that puddles in the shower pan between sumps.
I am also of the same mind regarding the PVC seachest. I believe I first saw one in Steve Dashew's “Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia” – he used to put them in his innovative Sundeer boats. Recycling the old Pearson sump box just seemed like a handier way to go when I got to that project on my list, but now I'm not so sure. I have already used PVC plumbing for various other applications in the boat and like the medium in general.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Robert Fine [mailto:("><email address>)]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 5:21 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chest – EpilogueHi Tor,
I like your idea, but I think I'll make my seachest out of 6″ PVC pipe with endcaps -Someone else here did something similar.
I'm thinking of taking the sump out altogether as a simple strainer and pump would be far more useful. I have the switch in the head anyway since there's no automatic float in the sump. Also, it would give me much better access to the bilge now that I put a holding tank in there.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Silver Heels <
( Paul,
This afternoon I tried out my seachest, converted from the old shower sump box. Boy, you were right about the water
pressure (2 emails below)! That rigid lid in which I had such confidence bulged up noticeably when I opened the seacock
and pressurized the box. Everything held and the system works as intended, but now I'm not comfortable with the strength
of it for the long term. I'll either beef up the box & lid with additional fiberglass, or just scrap that altogether and
build something more substantial from scratch.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Silver Heels [mailto:("><email address>)]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 1:19 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chest
Hey Paul,
I believe it was Hans Solo who said, “Never tell me the odds!”
I intentionally placed the thru-hull for the intake seachest down low so that it would produce positive water
pressure,
thinking this would assist all systems to draw more easily and have an ample supply of water flowing back into the
seachest. The intake is also forward of all discharge thru-hulls to help insure it draws clean water. The fiberglass
sump box in my boat is pretty hefty. No way the water pressure you describe is going to break it. It'd take a
hard blow
with a small sledge to do that. The lid is 1/8″ solid 'glass, perfectly rigid, and secured by about 30 screws. I think
it'll suit admirably, but the proof will be in the use. I'll let you know how it all works out.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Paul Lefebvre [mailto:(">
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 12:56 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chest
Tor:
While it looks like you have already done most of the work on the shower
drain, you may find one of the following of interest. I recently purchased
on of these as my hose fittings on the hold sump had failed. Being self
contained, along with a float switch, means you can leave it always on and
never have to worry about the shower drain. The pump inside is a low cost
Rule bilge pump, so replacement when it breaks should be pretty easy.http://www.boatersland.com/ru97shdrkit.html
The work you have down on the sea-chest looks good and that looks like a
great way to reuse the old fiberglass shower sump. However, the engineer in
me isn't very comfortable using a component designed to be at atmospheric
pressure as a pressure vessel. Even if it only saw a 3 ft head of water,
this would generate 1.5 psi pressure With the cover at 8″ x 15″ or 120
square inches, this would generate 180 lbs of pressure on the cover. It may
even be more than this in healed or high waves. This unit may be able to
withstand this, but it is almost 30 years old and it does now have 7 or 8
new 1″ holes in it.Hopefully it holds well when you check it out in the near future.
Paul
Boundless #28From: “Silver Heels” <
("><email address>)>
Reply-To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
To:
Subject: shower sump & seachest
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:10:22 -0500Good day Bob,
The shower sump pump had died some time in the past and the PO, lazy…
fellow that he was, simply allowed the shower to drain into the bilge. This
is a practice more common than you might suppose, but one I have never
tolerated on my own boats. I plumbed the shower drain directly to a 12-v
water pump (with an inline strainer just before it) mounted at the bottom
of
the locker beneath the head sink, and from there overboard. I have to
switch
on the sump pump several times in the course of showering, when water
begins
to puddle in the shower pan, but I located the switch just outside the
shower stall so it's easy to reach it. I'm looking for some kind of plastic
grating to set down in the shower stall, raised up an inch or so off the
sole, to keep my delicate toes out of the water that puddles in between
sumps, but I'm basically happy with the set up even now.The intake seachest draws from a dedicated thru-hull that I installed about
6″ forward and lower than the box. It feeds everything in the boat that
uses
seawater except the engine, which has it's own, dedicated seacock. I must
say, though, that I have not actually sealed and tested this seachest yet.
Soon. It's on the list.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Robert Fine [mailto:("><email address>)]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:01 AM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Raw Water strainer placement
Hi Tor,
Where does your shower drain now? Also, where does the water for the
sea
chest come from?Thanks,
Bob
On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Silver Heels <
(<email address>)> wrote: Eric,
I moved my raw water strainer from it's original position. Where it
was
blocked access to the shower sump box, which I converted to a seawater
intake seachest (although I left the engine's raw water intake separate,
with it's own seacock). As you can see in the attached photo I only moved
the Groco off to the side. That worked out well.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Eric Lorentzon [mailto:(<email address>)]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Raw Water strainer placement
Hi Folks –
I am replacing the simple in-line water strainer (oem) on my '79
424.
Looking for advice on placement / mounting for the Perko that just arrived
from Santa – or maybe it was an early easterbunny dropping…..Also should
I
replace the raw water intake while it is out of the water too – it is OEM
as
well.Thanks –
Eric
“Navasana” #70
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Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kidding—
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John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
I think Tor stated the main advantage of the seachest over just a manifold, which is what I installed. With a seachest you don’t need to size the thru-hull to meet surge demand. With a manifold you do need to deliver the surge demand through the seacock. Otherwise you run the risk of starving one of the connected pumps. The safest way to size the manifold thru-hull is just add up the cross sectional internal area of every hose fed by the manifold then use a seacock with equal or greater cross-sectional area. That will produce a significantly oversized thru-hull, but it will provide capacity to expand the manifold or increase a pump capacity in the future. If you use hose barbs to connect the hoses to the manifold you can use the ID of the barbs to calculate the cross-sectional area,which is significantly less that the hose area.
Of course, an engineer would get the specs on every pump in the system and calculate the thru-hull size to those specs.
I’ve been running all of my non-engine seawater demands (head, AC, Frig, galley) from one manifold fed by a 1″ seacock for nearly 5 years. The only problem I’ve encountered is on the Chesapeake Bay. I need to clean out the raw water strainer at least weekly when the Sea Nettles appear in the summer. In Florida the strainer bowl started to attract barnacles. A bi-weekly addition of a pool tablet in the strainer basket seems to have contained that problem (Tor something you may want to think about for your seachest).
I have a separate manifold for the engine and generator fed by a 1-1/2″ seacock.
The only pump that is not fed by a manifold is the deck washdown. There was a 3/4″ seacock in the forward cabin, originally for the 2nd AC (which is gone) so I lazily used it for the washdown pump. I may move that to the cabin manifold, but that will wait until I decide if I’m going to add a watermaker.
I still have gazillion thru-hulls.
Routing the deck drains to the hull above the water line is a good idea, but you will spend a lot of time keeping the hull clean.John
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Regards,
John Stevenson
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Rich,
Sounds like one more reason to head south. Winter is just about over here on the Chesapeake. I can’t wait to put my winter clothes back in vacuum sealed plastic. Hopefully they never come out of those bags.Regards,
John Stevenson
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Regards,
John Stevenson
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