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Hello all,
One of my upcoming projects, this Fall or Winter, is a Solent stay and associated sail and rigging for my ketch. I’ve reviewed at least some of the discussion on this forum regarding the efforts of others in this endeavor, as well as some debate regarding whether or not to go with a double headed ketch arrangement, or a removable Solent stay. So as not to repeat that debate again, I’ve decided on a removable Solent stay.
I’m aware of at least two vessels that added a Solent stay aft of the anchor locker (Whoosh and Sarah), tied through the deck to the anchor locker aft bulkhead. The other option, it appears, is tacking the bottom end of the solent stay to the existing fitting to which the existing forestay is attached. I’ve seen pictures of this option on Deep Playa, #152. The stay clears the furler drum, and is of course, removable with what appears to be a highfield lever, or similar. On Deep Playa, it appears the sheet rigging runs along the top of the cabin trunk, allowing for narrow sheeting angles, maybe too narrow?
Anyway, I’m seeking comment/advice from those that have been the solent stay route on their vessels and had an opportunity to see how their selections worked out. As always, I’m deeply appreciative to those who are willing to share their thoughts.
David Tye
Blue Moon
#189 -
Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Solent Stay
Unabated has the stay fashioned after whoosh. Used same machine shop as jack.
To tell you the truth, after all the miles, I’ve never used it. With all the sail combinations on a ketch, I am good up to maybe 36 knots maybe a bit more.
YMMV
AlanSent from my iPhone
On Aug 2, 2015, at 1:55 PM, typhoontye via maillist wrote:
Hello all,
One of my upcoming projects, this Fall or Winter, is a Solent stay and associated sail and rigging for my ketch. I’ve reviewed at least some of the discussion on this forum regarding the efforts of others in this endeavor, as well as some debate regarding whether or not to go with a double headed ketch arrangement, or a removable Solent stay. So as not to repeat that debate again, I’ve decided on a removable Solent stay.
I’m aware of at least two vessels that added a Solent stay aft of the anchor locker (Whoosh and Sarah), tied through the deck to the anchor locker aft bulkhead. The other option, it appears, is tacking the bottom end of the solent stay to the existing fitting to which the existing forestay is attached. I’ve seen pictures of this option on Deep Playa, #152. The stay clears the furler drum, and is of course, removable with what appears to be a highfield lever, or similar. On Deep Playa, it appears the sheet rigging runs along the top of the cabin trunk, allowing for narrow sheeting angles, maybe too narrow?
Anyway, I’m seeking comment/advice from those that have been the solent stay route on their vessels and had an opportunity to see how their selections worked out. As always, I’m deeply appreciative to those who are willing to share their thoughts.
David Tye
Blue Moon
#189_______________________________________________
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Same here as Allan. Initially the staysail was too large – about the same
size as 60% of my 135 genoa. So I usually furled the Genoa to 50-69%,
which was good for 30-35 kts apparent down wind. If I had to go smaller it
would have been a storm sail on the Solent Stay. Never happened.
I had the stay sail cut smaller, but have been coastal cruising since then.
I do like having the stay to hold onto when on the foredeck. It was worth
the expense and time just for that.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 3:50 PM, aphil138— via maillist <
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Start of attached email. Subject: Solent stay
As I think more about it and of course the aftermath of the experiences I had in the Caribbean and the Bahamas, here would be my advice.
Unless your planning on crossing oceans. If your just doing the Caribbean or Bahamas. I would spend my limited resource$ on:
In no particular order.
reducing my day to day power consumption without reducing my lifestyle.
invest more on renewable energy generation.
Invest in reliable ground tackle with a plan B.
And lastly, the best thing I ever did was install a water maker. A (35 gph) home made unit as I watched the same people make their daily water run across the harbor.
You spend most of your time on the hook (marinas few and far between and co$tly)
Might as well make it comfortable, and sustainable (cheap).
IMHO
AlanSent from my iPhone
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Hi David,
What you’re talking about is two different sails. A solent stay is right
next to the head stay and contains a sail of almost the same hoist as the
headsail. It’s used for downwind (both sails out) or the solent has a
smaller foot sail (higher aspect ratio) sail for a higher wind range than
the headsail. In either case, the stays are both mast head and very close
to each other.With the stay attached to the aft bulkhead of the anchor locker reaching up
to mid mast, you have a baby stay or cutter stay. The staysail is small,
used for heavy weather, in conjunction with smaller headsails, or with the
spinnaker when reaching. It’s function is to direct flow into the slot
between the jib and main.I use mine all the time, eschewing the mainsail above about 12 or 15
knots. In low winds, it adds 1/2 a knot up to 1.5 knots in higher winds.
Sailing with the staysail, 120% jib, and mizzen is comfortable and
balanced. Add the main in low winds and it’s a beautiful sight to see, too!For a number of years I avoided the use of the staysail but a friend
convinced me to try it and the rest is history!Bob
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 4:20 PM, John Stevenson via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Same here as Allan. Initially the staysail was too large – about the same
size as 60% of my 135 genoa. So I usually furled the Genoa to 50-69%,
which was good for 30-35 kts apparent down wind. If I had to go smaller it
would have been a storm sail on the Solent Stay. Never happened.
I had the stay sail cut smaller, but have been coastal cruising since then.
I do like having the stay to hold onto when on the foredeck. It was worth
the expense and time just for that.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 3:50 PM, aphil138— via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:_______________________________________________
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Brilliant assessment, Alan!
I’d be interested in your 35gph water maker equipment.
Bob
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 9:15 PM, aphil138— via maillist <
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Thanks all for the replies and thoughts.
Based on what I’ve heard, I think my original thought is the best option for us and the sailing we do. Basically, I need the ability to fly a smaller headsail than my 135% roller furling genoa, but it needs to be a legitimate alternative for sailing upwind. Sounds like most of you don’t consider the staysail particularly helpful, and those that prefer to simply furl the genoa primarily sail downwind. Our sailing grounds consist of the Gulf of Mexico, with multi-day passages, and the Bahamas. We sail the Bahamas during the Winter months when prevailing Easterlies are in the 20-25 knot range, and frequently encounter similar conditions in the Gulf of Mexico, close reaching or even close hauled. Although the 424 is reasonably stiff, a partially furled genoa isn’t a good option in these conditions, particularly if efficient and reasonably flat sailing is a goal, which it is for us. I have no desire to fly two headsails, except perhaps dead downwind, so a removable stay, tacked as close as possible to the existing headstay sounds like the best alternative for us. Sheeting may be a challenge, but with the solent stay close to the existing headstay, it should be an easy matter to use the existing rail mounted track.
David
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Sounds sensible, David. I’ve never sailed a Solent-rigged boat,
but I’ve always wondered… As I understand it, the Solent stay
is very close behind the headstay. When working to windward in
light to moderate airs, how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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“how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?”That’s what I have to do with a 135 Genoa. On days when I might have to
tack repeatedly I remove the stay. The Solent Stay is only useful for long
passages where tacks are rare and planned hours, if not days, in advance.
Then I start the engine, furl the Genoa, tack, unfurl the genoa, and turn
off the engine.
With a smaller Genoa it might be possible to partially furl it and tack
without using the engine.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Sounds sensible, David. I’ve never sailed a Solent-rigged boat,
but I’ve always wondered… As I understand it, the Solent stay
is very close behind the headstay. When working to windward in
light to moderate airs, how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I’d love to see some pictures of these 424’s underway with these stay
sails flying.Pete
On 8/4/2015 9:09 AM, John Stevenson via maillist wrote:
Quote:“how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?”That’s what I have to do with a 135 Genoa. On days when I might have to
tack repeatedly I remove the stay. The Solent Stay is only useful for long
passages where tacks are rare and planned hours, if not days, in advance.
Then I start the engine, furl the Genoa, tack, unfurl the genoa, and turn
off the engine.
With a smaller Genoa it might be possible to partially furl it and tack
without using the engine.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Sounds sensible, David. I’ve never sailed a Solent-rigged boat,
but I’ve always wondered… As I understand it, the Solent stay
is very close behind the headstay. When working to windward in
light to moderate airs, how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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“I’d love to see some pictures of these 424’s underway with these stay
sails flying.”Unfortunately, because these sails are normally used on passages,
opportunities for pictures are very limited.
Best I can do is dockside:
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Deck/0911150017.JPGRegards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Pete Dubler via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:I’d love to see some pictures of these 424’s underway with these stay
sails flying.Pete
On 8/4/2015 9:09 AM, John Stevenson via maillist wrote:
Quote:“how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?”That’s what I have to do with a 135 Genoa. On days when I might have to
tack repeatedly I remove the stay. The Solent Stay is only useful for
long
passages where tacks are rare and planned hours, if not days, in advance.
Then I start the engine, furl the Genoa, tack, unfurl the genoa, and turn
off the engine.
With a smaller Genoa it might be possible to partially furl it and tack
without using the engine.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Sounds sensible, David. I’ve never sailed a Solent-rigged boat,
Quote:but I’ve always wondered… As I understand it, the Solent stay
is very close behind the headstay. When working to windward in
light to moderate airs, how does the genoa tack past that Solent
stay? Do you roll it in and back out each tack?Thanks,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Pete,
I’m no nautical terminology expert, but I think of a staysail as
the defining feature of cutter and “double-headsail” rigs, like
what Bob Fine and I have. Or is the inner jib in a Solent rig
also a “staysail?”As mentioned, my genoa tacks easily through the slot between the
headstay and the (double-headsail rig’s) inner forestay. I
imagine Bob’s does, too. The trade-off (on our ketches) is a
relatively small staysail. It seems a Solent stay precludes
tacking the genoa at all. Seems like a heavy trade-off to me.
Perhaps “the middle way,” setting the double-headsail rig’s inner
forestay further forward and higher on the mast to enlarge the
staysail, might be the best compromise – except it’ll probably
then be in the way when handling the ground tackle. Hmmm, perhaps
a 60-footer is the answer.There must be some great offsetting advantage to the Solent rig
because it’s so widely accepted. I recall Shannon Yachts started
making them standard on their sailboats a decade and more ago. I
just always wondered about the tacking issue.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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John,
Wow, your Solent stay touches the foredeck right about where my
double-headsail inner forestay does. That’s pretty cool. I’m
surprised your jenny won’t tack through that wide slot.Tor
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I only took my 424 offshore once. We got the snot beat out of us on a trip from New England to Bermuda. I ended up rolling up the headsail and powering into steep waves for two days. This gave me some time to think about the problem. I was reluctant to send anyone forward to take down the headsail. A deeply reefed roller furled headsail would have probably had such poor shape that it would have been useless. I wanted my storm jib up. The solent stay would have let me roll the headsail up and tack on the storm jib. When not used, the inner forestay detaches from the inner forestay and attaches to a ring on the toe-rail just forward of one of the forward lowers. When coastal cruising, I’d either remove the inner forestay or hank it to the ring on the toe-rail. I see no usefor this unless you are offshore. The wire is a bit short to attach to the chainplate so a short extra wire is used to attach it. I have all the hardware including the chainplate but I never installed the chainplate. I had expected to attach the upper end of the solent stay to the tang on the mast where a cutter would do the same, but this requires running backs. Using a tang much higher on the mast would make more sense. I wouldn’t fly both headsails at the same time.
I never finished the rigging job because I never really came up with a good plan for attaching the chainplate. I cut a slot in the deck for the chainplate and expected to mount a teak beam across the inside of the forward bulkhead but was never really happy with the plan. What have others done with the chainplate?
Rich
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Tor,
One reason I can’t tack the Genoa with the Solent Stay in place is that my
Genoa is a stiff (Spectra Laminate) 135% sail. I purchased this sail from
Quantum in 2002 when I was still weekend sailing on the Chesapeake Bay and
thought I needed a large headsail (and I still had an income to afford the
laminate). This was also several years before I decided to add the Solent
Stay. The laminate construction makes for great sail shape even after 12
years and 1000’s of miles of use, but it doesn’t like to be compressed into
a small slot.
I suspect if my headsail were conventional Dacron and maybe only 120% it
would tack with much less difficulty. I’ll probably replace that Genoa
next year with a Dacron 120, so maybe I won’t have to use the engine for
tacking.
On both of my ocean crossings the 135 Genoa was normally furled 75-80%, so
it was effectively less than a 120.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 11:19 AM, re.carter— via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:I only took my 424 offshore once. We got the snot beat out of us on a
trip from New England to Bermuda. I ended up rolling up the headsail and
powering into steep waves for two days. This gave me some time to think
about the problem. I was reluctant to send anyone forward to take down the
headsail. A deeply reefed roller furled headsail would have probably had
such poor shape that it would have been useless. I wanted my storm jib
up. The solent stay would have let me roll the headsail up and tack on the
storm jib. When not used, the inner forestay detaches from the inner
forestay and attaches to a ring on the toe-rail just forward of one of the
forward lowers. When coastal cruising, I’d either remove the inner
forestay or hank it to the ring on the toe-rail. I see no usefor this
unless you are offshore. The wire is a bit short to attach to the
chainplate so a short extra wire is used to attach it. I have all the
hardware including the chainplate but I never installed the chainplate. I
had expected to attach the upper end of the solent stay to the tang on the
mast where a cutter would do the same, but this requires running backs.
Using a tang much higher on the mast would make more sense. I wouldn’t fly
both headsails at the same time.I never finished the rigging job because I never really came up with a
good plan for attaching the chainplate. I cut a slot in the deck for the
chainplate and expected to mount a teak beam across the inside of the
forward bulkhead but was never really happy with the plan. What have
others done with the chainplate?Rich
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Rich,
I, and several others, used the sail tack approach implemented by Hal
Sutphen on Sea Duty. It is made of two parts – a deck plate and a backing
plate under the deck that transfers the load to the forward bulkhead. I
believe this is the same approach used by Pearson on the cutter rigged 424s.http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Solent%20Bracket%202.JPG
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Rigging/Bracket1.jpgRegards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:23 PM, John Stevenson
wrote:Quote:Tor,
One reason I can’t tack the Genoa with the Solent Stay in place is that my
Genoa is a stiff (Spectra Laminate) 135% sail. I purchased this sail from
Quantum in 2002 when I was still weekend sailing on the Chesapeake Bay and
thought I needed a large headsail (and I still had an income to afford the
laminate). This was also several years before I decided to add the Solent
Stay. The laminate construction makes for great sail shape even after 12
years and 1000’s of miles of use, but it doesn’t like to be compressed into
a small slot.
I suspect if my headsail were conventional Dacron and maybe only 120% it
would tack with much less difficulty. I’ll probably replace that Genoa
next year with a Dacron 120, so maybe I won’t have to use the engine for
tacking.
On both of my ocean crossings the 135 Genoa was normally furled 75-80%, so
it was effectively less than a 120.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 11:19 AM, re.carter— via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:I only took my 424 offshore once. We got the snot beat out of us on a
trip from New England to Bermuda. I ended up rolling up the headsail and
powering into steep waves for two days. This gave me some time to think
about the problem. I was reluctant to send anyone forward to take down the
headsail. A deeply reefed roller furled headsail would have probably had
such poor shape that it would have been useless. I wanted my storm jib
up. The solent stay would have let me roll the headsail up and tack on the
storm jib. When not used, the inner forestay detaches from the inner
forestay and attaches to a ring on the toe-rail just forward of one of the
forward lowers. When coastal cruising, I’d either remove the inner
forestay or hank it to the ring on the toe-rail. I see no usefor this
unless you are offshore. The wire is a bit short to attach to the
chainplate so a short extra wire is used to attach it. I have all the
hardware including the chainplate but I never installed the chainplate. I
had expected to attach the upper end of the solent stay to the tang on the
mast where a cutter would do the same, but this requires running backs.
Using a tang much higher on the mast would make more sense. I wouldn’t fly
both headsails at the same time.I never finished the rigging job because I never really came up with a
good plan for attaching the chainplate. I cut a slot in the deck for the
chainplate and expected to mount a teak beam across the inside of the
forward bulkhead but was never really happy with the plan. What have
others done with the chainplate?Rich
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Hello Tor,
I’m hopeful I can design a system to deploy/re-deploy the solent stay easily and quickly. The lower end of the stay will store on the foredeck or somewhere else, not sure yet. I already have a very sturdy and large turnbuckle for the lower end. It has retractable handles built in that will allow me to tension/de-tension the stay without having to remove pins and go through a lot of machinations. The ‘highfield lever’ (I think it’s called) is another option, though a bit more expensive. The highfield lever has a single tensioning arm that facilitates tensioning/de-tensioning the stay with a single motion. There is an example of this in the photo gallery section, I think under ‘interior mods’ (oddly) on hull #152…can’t remember the vessel name, but since sold. I plan to have a blade sail built, probably 100%, with reef points so that it can be made much smaller should the occasion arise. Of course the solent rig would not be deployed for most daysailing or ‘around the buoys’ sort of sailing, but would be an option for heavy weather sailing, particularly for windward sailing. I think that in the Bahamas, during the winter, the solent would be the primary foresail. Of course I’ll keep the forum informed as this project develops, later this year or early 2016.
David
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Here is a pic of an alternative to the Highfield Lever used on the Solent
Stay on a friend’s boat, a Nautical 40 made in Canada. A “T” fitting on
the end of the stay is inserted into the fitting and tensioned/locked by a
winch handle inserted into the side of housing. It is released by pulling
on the ring on the aft end of the housing. I have no idea of the make of
this hardware. I also don’t know how well it works as the friend keeps his
boat on the Chesapeake and as far as I know has never set a sail on this
Solent Stay.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:59 PM, typhoontye via maillist <
> wrote:Hello Tor,
I’m hopeful I can design a system to deploy/re-deploy the solent stay
easily and quickly. The lower end of the stay will store on the foredeck
or somewhere else, not sure yet. I already have a very sturdy and large
turnbuckle for the lower end. It has retractable handles built in that
will allow me to tension/de-tension the stay without having to remove pins
and go through a lot of machinations. The ‘highfield lever’ (I think it’s
called) is another option, though a bit more expensive. The highfield
lever has a single tensioning arm that facilitates tensioning/de-tensioning
the stay with a single motion. There is an example of this in the photo
gallery section, I think under ‘interior mods’ (oddly) on hull #152…can’t
remember the vessel name, but since sold. I plan to have a blade sail
built, probably 100%, with reef points so that it can be made much smaller
should the occasion arise. Of course the solent rig would not be deployed
for most daysailing or ‘around the buoys’ sort of sailing, but would be an
option for heavy weather sailing, particularly for windward sailing. I
think that in the Bahamas, during the winter, the solent would be the
primary foresail. Of course I’ll keep the forum informed as this project
develops, later this year or early 2016.David
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John
Where did you get the deck and backing plate?Rich
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Had it made by a machine shop in Ft. Pierce. Here are links to the AutoCad
files I used for the fabrication.http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Rigging/Deck%20Fitting.DWG
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Rigging/Backing%20Plate.DWGRegards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:24 PM, re.carter— via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:John
Where did you get the deck and backing plate?Rich
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Rich,
There is an error in the backing plate diagram. I had it drawn before I
checked clearances behind the bulkhead and found that the base of the
anchor well precluded a backing plate that covered the base that attached
to the bulkhead. I ended up turning the backing plate 90 degrees so it
would fit below the anchor well. I used large fender washers on the
machine screws at the top of the plate.http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Rigging/Bracket2.jpg
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:28 PM, John Stevenson
wrote:Quote:Had it made by a machine shop in Ft. Pierce. Here are links to the
AutoCad files I used for the fabrication.http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Rigging/Deck%20Fitting.DWG
http://www.svsarah.com/Sarah/Images/Rigging/Backing%20Plate.DWGRegards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:24 PM, re.carter— via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:John
Where did you get the deck and backing plate?Rich
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Do you have contact information for your machine shop? I could just ask them to make another pair.
Rich
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Actually it was a subcontractor to Mack Sails in Stuart who did the rigging
job. Again, note that backing plate for the under deck fitting has to be
turned 90 degrees to fit under the anchor well.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
Sarah’s BlogOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:40 PM, re.carter— via maillist <
> wrote:Quote:Do you have contact information for your machine shop? I could just ask
them to make another pair.Rich
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Rich,
I’m learning all the time, both here and offshore. We all are. Hope you don’t mind me sharing a few thoughts that came to mind reading your email. They may prove useful should you venture offshore again:
You wrote, “ended up rolling up the headsail and powering into steep waves for two days.”
I’m sure you used prudent judgement for the conditions (and I’ve motored in myself sometimes, just to get a nasty trip over with), but it’s often much more comfortable to fall off and sail. It may (or may not) take longer to get in, but you’ll certainly enjoy the trip more. And wasn’t that the point of going in the first place? I mean, it’s not like we’re getting paid to do this.
“I was reluctant to send anyone forward to take down the headsail.”
That’s usually the time to heave-to, often simply by tacking without touching any sheets, thus back-winding the jib. Everything stops and becomes eerily quiet and stable on board. You then do what needs to be done forward, safely, conversing in normal voices. Maybe take time to cook and enjoy a hot meal. (I’ve even taken a long nap in such circumstances!) Then, refreshed and ready for the rougher conditions, you resume sailing. Unless you’re racing, reefing early and heaving-to are often an offshore sailor’s best friends.
“A deeply reefed roller furled headsail would have probably had such poor shape that it would have been useless. I wanted my storm jib up.”
That’s the reason cutter rigs are so popular among cruisers, and why I added a staysail to Silverheels’ ketch rig. On a cutter, you simply furl the genoa (without going forward), tuck a reef in the main, and keep going. Because my staysail is a bit small, I find I still need a scrap of genoa flying even in gale conditions to make decent headway to windward. And because (as you point out) the genoa won’t set perfectly when it’s so deeply reefed (even though mine has the advantage of a foam-padded luff, which significantly enhances sail shape when roller-reefed), I have to fall off a bit more to get the most out of the imperfectly-shaped jib. But even that has a plus side, i.e., beating to windward becomes significantly smoother, becoming almost a close reach. In the horrid conditions you describe, that’s the angle you want anyway. It’s not about top performance at that point so much as coping and not over-punishing yourself, the crew and the boat. Sometimes blue water cruising is by definition a bit of a (happy) compromise.
IMHO,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Pretty cool, John. Never seen that before.
Thanks,
Tor
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Well said Tor, especially those last two sentences. On a previous boat as a
singlehander, heaving to was something I ‘d do often, to reef the main,
change a head-sail (old school hank on) take a break in a particularly
nasty squall and on my longest trip the “only” way I could sleep. Three or
four hours at a time. I’d leave running lights on and strap a flashlight on
my mainlsail. Didn’t have much choice, you have to sleep.
KenOn Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Silverheels via maillist <
> wrote:Rich,
I’m learning all the time, both here and offshore. We all are. Hope you
don’t mind me sharing a few thoughts that came to mind reading your email.
They may prove useful should you venture offshore again:You wrote, “ended up rolling up the headsail and powering into steep
waves for two days.”
I’m sure you used prudent judgement for the conditions (and I’ve motored
in myself sometimes, just to get a nasty trip over with), but it’s often
much more comfortable to fall off and sail. It may (or may not) take longer
to get in, but you’ll certainly enjoy the trip more. And wasn’t that the
point of going in the first place? I mean, it’s not like we’re getting paid
to do this.“I was reluctant to send anyone forward to take down the headsail.”
That’s usually the time to heave-to, often simply by tacking without
touching any sheets, thus back-winding the jib. Everything stops and
becomes eerily quiet and stable on board. You then do what needs to be done
forward, safely, conversing in normal voices. Maybe take time to cook and
enjoy a hot meal. (I’ve even taken a long nap in such circumstances!) Then,
refreshed and ready for the rougher conditions, you resume sailing. Unless
you’re racing, reefing early and heaving-to are often an offshore sailor’s
best friends.“A deeply reefed roller furled headsail would have probably had such
poor shape that it would have been useless. I wanted my storm jib up.”
That’s the reason cutter rigs are so popular among cruisers, and why I
added a staysail to Silverheels’ ketch rig. On a cutter, you simply furl
the genoa (without going forward), tuck a reef in the main, and keep going.
Because my staysail is a bit small, I find I still need a scrap of genoa
flying even in gale conditions to make decent headway to windward. And
because (as you point out) the genoa won’t set perfectly when it’s so
deeply reefed (even though mine has the advantage of a foam-padded luff,
which significantly enhances sail shape when roller-reefed), I have to fall
off a bit more to get the most out of the imperfectly-shaped jib. But even
that has a plus side, i.e., beating to windward becomes significantly
smoother, becoming almost a close reach. In the horrid conditions you
describe, that’s the angle you want anyway. It’s not about top performance
at that point so much as coping and not over-punishing yourself, the crew
and the boat. Sometimes blue water cruising is by definition a bit of a
(happy) compromise.IMHO,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Thanks, Ken. I didn’t mean to pontificate. Just that I’ve heard Rich refer to that rough passage before, and it being his only time offshore in his 424 I thought he might have made it a little harder on himself than it needed to be. I’ve become a bit of a heavy weather wimp in my golden years. Just want to find the least self-abusive way through the nasty stuff. Slow it down, crack off, smooth it out, eat some food, get some sleep… Yep.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Solent Stay
After doing the Eastern Caribbean with the winter trades (Christmas winds) I thought the Bahamas winds quite a bit of a relief.
Trades blow 25-30 24/7 and as the name implies, Mostly from the east.
Bahamas, wind direction varies every few days as the fronts blow through from Fla.
but are rarely sustained in the upper 20s.
Never found a reason put the Solent stay and sail on.
Tor, you were in the Caribbean at the same time I was. I put a reef in in November, took it out in May. I am sure your experience was probably the same?
AlanSent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2015, at 2:59 PM, typhoontye via maillist wrote:
Hello Tor,
I’m hopeful I can design a system to deploy/re-deploy the solent stay easily and quickly. The lower end of the stay will store on the foredeck or somewhere else, not sure yet. I already have a very sturdy and large turnbuckle for the lower end. It has retractable handles built in that will allow me to tension/de-tension the stay without having to remove pins and go through a lot of machinations. The ‘highfield lever’ (I think it’s called) is another option, though a bit more expensive. The highfield lever has a single tensioning arm that facilitates tensioning/de-tensioning the stay with a single motion. There is an example of this in the photo gallery section, I think under ‘interior mods’ (oddly) on hull #152…can’t remember the vessel name, but since sold. I plan to have a blade sail built, probably 100%, with reef points so that it can be made much smaller should the occasion arise. Of course the solent rig would not be deployed for most daysailing or ‘around the buoys’ sort of sailing, but would be an option for heavy weather sailing, particularly for windward sailing. I think that in the Bahamas, during the winter, the solent would be the primary foresail. Of course I’ll keep the forum informed as this project develops, later this year or early 2016.
David
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Yes, Alan, much the same. In the Lesser Antilles I pretty much
left the reef in the mainsail all winter, nearly always flew my
staysail (mainly because I could, I guess), and reefed & shook
out the genoa as the winds dictated. Twice in recent years I’ve
sailed back to the States via the Bahamas, in either late winter
or early spring. I found the sailing markedly quieter except when
the cold fronts blew through. Then I’d seek shelter and remain
anchored until it passed and the wind veered & settled.Seems to me we all get along with what we have, the main thing
being to get along. And reef early.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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David,
That sounds like a smart approach; there when you need it, gone
when you don’t. I gather your Solent staysail will be hanked on
(as is my double-headed staysail). I also liked John Stevenson’s
rig, which seems like it would let a normal 130% genoa tack thru
without removing the Solent stay, but I doubt it would
accommodate a full 100% jib like yours will.I’ve never really looked into the Solent rig, but can now see its
value. That said, my genoa maintains a smooth, efficient shape
even when rolled halfway in, thanks (perhaps largely) to the
foam-padded luff, a feature I’ve favored since the 80’s. It’s
still useful roller-reefed 2/3rds, albeit not as close-hauled. My
intention for the staysail I added was mainly to serve as a heavy
weather headsail, which (I see) your rig and John’s can also
provide.Thanks,
Tor
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Solent Stay
A while back, 2008-2009, there were was a discussion about Solent stays. Below is a revised and edited version of what contributed to that discussion. If anyone is interested I still have the e-mails in my Yahoo memory.
In 2008 I installed a removal Solent stay on Easy Reach, secured 18 inches below masthead with a T-bolt. In use it was secured to the last hole in the stem bar behindthe roller furling gear. Because it is longer than the mast, securing it out ofthe way can be dicey. I had a jury rig, but did not figure out a good permanentarrangement. By using the stem fitting and the T-bolt close to the mastheadthere was no need to build supports under the foredeck nor to install runningbackstays. I used the Solent stay for upwind courses hanking on a high-cutYankee. The Yankee luff runs the full length of the stay and provides good liftto drive the boat forward into the wind. The high cut eliminates the largebelly of a roughly right angle cut Genoa and thereby reduces the heeling causedbelly of such a jib. I tried sheeting the Yankee inboard of stays through theGenoa block, but the Yankee clew was too far forward so the sheeting did notwork well with the stays. It worked well sheeted outboard of the stays and Ihad no plan then to try a different arrangement to get it inboard. How well did it work? The severest test was a day long beatWSW along the coast of Maine in a force 5-6 wind. We made 6-7 knots all daywith the Yankee on the Solent stay and one tuck in the main, and no mizzen. Wetried it once in a light wind, but it was not useful. I hypothesized that therolled Genoa dirtied the light air flowing over it preventing the Yankee fromfilling well.  Norris Larson, former owner of Easy Reach, hull #206.
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Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Solent Stay
A while back, 2008-2009, there were was a discussion about Solent stays. Below is a revised and edited version of what contributed to that discussion. If anyone is interested I still have the e-mails in my Yahoo memory.
In 2008 I installed a removal Solent stay on Easy Reach, secured 18 inches below masthead with a T-bolt. In use it was secured to the last hole in the stem bar behindthe roller furling gear. Because it is longer than the mast, securing it out ofthe way can be dicey. I had a jury rig, but did not figure out a good permanentarrangement. By using the stem fitting and the T-bolt close to the mastheadthere was no need to build supports under the foredeck nor to install runningbackstays. I used the Solent stay for upwind courses hanking on a high-cutYankee. The Yankee luff runs the full length of the stay and provides good liftto drive the boat forward into the wind. The high cut eliminates the largebelly of a roughly right angle cut Genoa and thereby reduces the heeling causedbelly of such a jib. I tried sheeting the Yankee inboard of stays through theGenoa block, but the Yankee clew was too far forward so the sheeting did notwork well with the stays. It worked well sheeted outboard of the stays and Ihad no plan then to try a different arrangement to get it inboard. How well did it work? The severest test was a day long beatWSW along the coast of Maine in a force 5-6 wind. We made 6-7 knots all daywith the Yankee on the Solent stay and one tuck in the main, and no mizzen. Wetried it once in a light wind, but it was not useful. I hypothesized that therolled Genoa dirtied the light air flowing over it preventing the Yankee fromfilling well.  Norris Larson, former owner of Easy Reach, hull #206.
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Very instructive, Norris. Thanks!
In fact, darn it, you guys have me thinking about this Solent rig. Norris’ description of the rig’s effectiveness to windward sure is appealing, and David’s planned quick-release solves the interference (with the genoa) issue. But I also like John Stevenson’s rig, which I’m pretty sure provides enough of a slot to allow an ordinary 125% genoa to tack through, and with both headsails flying simultaneously we’ve added Bob Fine’s sail slot to the mix for an extra half-knot of speed in some conditions. All good stuff.
So I’m sitting here thinking I already have a strong foredeck fitting (for my staysail stay) near the chain locker bulkhead, and a killer mast strap & tang I made for my double-headsail rig that could easily be relocated just below the masthead. Also, there are unused clevis pin holes abaft the headstay in the standard stemhead fitting. Ergo, I already have all 3 attachment points, plus a small, 9.03 oz. hank-on heavy weather staysail that reefs to a storm jib.
Now the fun part.
Suppose I make up a 1×19 wire to reach from the masthead tang to the foredeck fitting (minus the length of a quick-release lever). Since the wide slot should allow the genoa to tack freely as my present staysail does, this can also be the “stowed” position for that Solent stay. Now make up a second, much shorter length of 1×19, enough to extend the first part so it will reach the stemhead fitting (again minus the length of the quick-release lever). When I want the Norris/David rig for windward work in a stiff breeze (or to fly double jibs downwind!), I join the 2 wire lengths using some fast connection. Even pelican hooks would suffice, but there are probably better fittings. Remember, this wire isn’t a structural support for the mast, just a place to hank on sails. And the wire joint is low enough to clip the hanks on so that they don’t have to slide over it. (If I’m not mistaken – and I have not gone out to take any measurements yet – I’d guess that “pelican joint” will sit at or below eye level when the full-length, Norris/David Solent stay is in place immediately abaft the furled genoa.)
What I’m getting at, of course, is having my cake and eating it, too – or three – retaining the benefits of the staysail I have and adding the perks of both Solent setups. No time right now to refine this nutty idea, but I thought I’d toss it out there and see how crazy it is.
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Tor
I appreciate your thoughts here. This was my only offshore trip and it was an eye-opener for me. Crossing the gulf stream has a deserved bad reputation. The outbound trip was miserable. The weather report I got from Southbound II was alarming. A low pressure system was to form over the gulf stream in the next couple of days so taking our time was not an option. We reached Bermuda just in time. The skies opened up just as we tied up to the custom dock and it poured and blew for five days. Two boats behind us didn’t make it. The experience has cured me of any desire to go offshore again. As I get older, I may not have the stamina for it anymore anyway. When I retire in a couple of years, I may cruise down the coast and do some island hopping but I doubt I’ll take a long passage again.I’ll have to take a close look at the stemhead fitting. If I can run the solent stay from the inboard stem fitting instead of a second chainplate rigging the stay would be much easier. My wife really likes taking a deck chair up forward to read and any mention of cluttering the foredeck is met with stiff resistance. Even if I don’t do any long passagemaking having an option for heavy air is good.
I just bought a new headsail and they put in a luff filler. It’s no longer a pad. They sewed in some kind of rope. It works OK for a modest reef but the sail is too baggy for anything more than about 50%. It’s a 155% genoa so even 50% is too much.
Regards
Rich
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Quite the adventure you had, Rich. Sounds like you handled it very well, all things considered.
Man, that’s a big genoa you have! No wonder it doesn’t roller-reef well. You have a lot of light airs up there in the summer, so I’m sure it’s worth it. Sounds like a Solent rig would fill a gap for you, providing good windward sailing efficiency in stronger winds.
Tor
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