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Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone has a drawing of the prop shaft and if anyone has
a 4 bladed prop.Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
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That would be terrific! If you can get the taper as well.
Thanks!
Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Jan 13, 2014 7:37 AM, “Discoverie” wrote:Mine is out for work. I could measure and send dims, if that would help.
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I probably shouldn’t ask this on top of your post, but since it is about props, I will ask anyway. I don’t have the detail of shaft and props that you are looking for, but it reminded me that I have a prop issue I need to explore.
I have a 1.5 inch shaft with a 21 inch wheel, feathering MAX PROP. When it is good it is very very good, however when it is bad…..
I am now getting a vibration that I didn’t use to have, at around 1800 and up I feel it most. Even after cleaning the prop of all sea life, I still get the vibration. It seems that it is worse when I am surfing down a wave, or when I am motor-sailing and the wind picks up and sails faster than the engine is driving. Is that inherent in a feathering prop when it is coasting and not working hard (not pushing water) or is it perhaps indicative of a feathering prop that is worn and is too loosy-goosy? Do I gain anything by sending it back to the factory for a re-build? -
Don’t assume that it’s your prop. It may be any number of things including the V-drive or cutless bearing. Start by checking the oil in your V-drive. Inspect the V-drive and it’s mounts for signs that something has come loose, particularly the mounts and adjustment screws. Inspect the U-joints where the jack-shaft attaches to the engine for wear. All this is cheap, easy, and should be done periodically anyway.
Your problem description is a bit vague. Does it sometimes work smoothly and sometimes vibrate? If so, what’s different about when it’s smooth vs vibration?
Rich
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I did check out the v-drive as best I know how. It is secure and the oil is changed and clean. No leaks. Also checked the u-joints and linkage and all seems secure, no wobble. I have no way to check the cutlass, except to see that it has packing in it, and I have tightened it and stopped any leak. Could a loose or leaking cutlass nut have caused a vibration? I have not run the prop/shaft since tightening it, but I did stop the drip. It was dripping at a rate of one drop per second while running. I thought that was normal.
If the vibration is caused by something else, wouldn’t that vibration, over time, create havoc with the cutlass bearing? -
cstewart,
Cutlass bearing secures prop shaft to hull. The stuffing box creates a water tight (more or less) around the prop shaft. Here’s a boatus piece on stuffing boxes. (http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/stuffing-box.asp)On the vibration issue, has anyone used a strobe light to check for vibration as the shaft spins at various speeds?
Madsailor,
On the prop shaft diagram question, Gabe Capobianchi at Precision Machining says he has the dimensions, but his shop is closed today. ‘Will follow up when he has the materials.While on topic, Gabe uses Aquamet (http://www.aquamet.com/)for the raw stock. They have three grades of stainless prop shafts. The most corrosion resistant uses vanadium and moly. I can’t speak for the quality of Gab’s work yet, but he’s friendly, knowledgable and said I could pass his email address along at .
On Jan 13, 2014, at 5:29 PM, “cstewart” wrote:
I did check out the v-drive as best I know how. It is secure and the oil is changed and clean. No leaks. Also checked the u-joints and linkage and all seems secure, no wobble. I have no way to check the cutlass, except to see that it has packing in it, and I have tightened it and stopped any leak. Could a loose or leaking cutlass nut have caused a vibration? I have not run the prop/shaft since tightening it, but I did stop the drip. It was dripping at a rate of one drop per second while running. I thought that was normal.
If the vibration is caused by something else, wouldn’t that vibration, over time, create havoc with the cutlass bearing?
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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The packing gland and cutlass bearing are two entirely
separate things. I believe you want to tighten the
packing gland nut until you have 1-3 drops of water per
minute, not per second, when motoring. The cutlass
bearing is in the prop shaft strut tube just forward of
the propeller. To check it while afloat, dive down to
your prop shaft, grab it with your hand near the strut,
and see if you can wiggle the shaft slightly. If it
does wiggle at all, you’re due for a new cutlass
bearing when you haul out, the sooner the better. If it
doesn’t wiggle at all then it’s good and you’re back to
checking with the MaxProp maker and/or the alignment
issues Rich suggested, etc. Be sure to check the
coupling bolts where the prop shaft connects to the
V-drive. Mine had loosened and worn badly before I
bought my boat, which cost me a new coupling and a set
of the special, case-hardened bolts.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Now that I know my parts, I shall take care not strike the cutlass upon the glands around the shaft.
O.k. I’ll try to make more sense of it now. I have swum under the boat and tried to shake the shaft just outside the cutlass bearing (not tonight, but several months ago), and it did not wiggle. Seemed secure. I have also tightened the packing gland to where it is not dripping. The packing gland nut was loose somewhat and is now secure, though I don’t think that stopped the vibration. As for putting a strobe on the shaft, I have not done that. That’s kinda how I got to the point of thinking it might be the MAX PROP. Since they have moving parts, it just seems likely that it could start doing something that it shouldn’t. I met a guy in Georgetown EX early last April and he also has a 424 (Jezebel) with MAX PROP. I think I recalled that he was also having a vibration problem. I am wondering if this is a known or re-occurring issue. -
Bob, I apologize for not speaking up sooner as I just pulled my prop and old bronze shaft. I thought you were looking for a drawing and reference to a four blade prop. I didn’t think I’d be able to help and I’m still not sure I can. My shaft is old and worn and with the engine being upgraded about 13 years ago, along with that I know for sure, the thread for the prop nut was reduced to 1″- 8 threads per inch to accommodate a Martec feathering prop. I could give you the taper per inch and overall length, but I really don’t know for sure if it too was changed.
I too had some vibration at about 1900 RPM and figured at haul-out I’d go through the motions to find out why. The cutlass was 5 years old and had considerable slop in it before I took out the shaft. Not that many hours on the engine to warrant that kind of slop and when I pulled the shaft it was more obvious, the shaft was heavily worn at the cutlass bearing. When I measured the cutlass bearing it was about .050 out of round. It has since been hacked out (yesterday morning by me, a sawzall, chisel, hammer, and many other tools of utter destruction) and ready for a new one. I will also be bringing my old shaft, coupling and prop to the southeast’s premium shaft and prop fixers in Brunswick, GA. to have them make a new shaft and true the coupling and advise on my prop. From there….when the boat goes back in the water I’ll be checking alignment to the v-drive, etc., etc. to the engine, etc.
cstewart, if I was to guess the way you describe the vibration, the cutlass bearing. If everything else inside the boat still seems tight and in place and it didn’t vibrate before….jmho
Ken
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I believe the prop shaft follows SAE J755 standard. The approximate measurements on my shaft.
Shaft Diameter – 1.5″
length of taper – 4″
Diameter at the small end of the taper 1.25″
Length of threaded section 2″
OD threaded section 1.125″
Threads/inch 7 or 8Should be able to find an online SAE standard.
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Ken,
Having been through cutlass bearing hell the first time
on Silverheels, I vowed Never Again! When you put in
the new cutlass bearing, leave about 1″ of it stacking
out at the back of the strut tube. It makes zero
difference to the performance of the bearing, but a
huge difference next time you need to change it, giving
you something to grab/twist/pull with a chain wrench or
whatever. I also cut open the front end of the tube,
which on my boat was rounded like a hollow-point
bullet. With it cut back I can get at the front edge of
the cutlass bearing with pounding tools.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor,
I’ve never met a cutlass bearing that I haven’t had to totally cut, hack and beat to submission. This was my fourth.I might leave it hanging out a tad just so if it is me next time I can start out by giving it a massive beating “in” just to get it moving. Like the old trick of getting stuck screws out…if you start by giving a steady full force tightening the screw, without over doing it of course, you get it broke free and then it backs out easy (most of the time). All but three of my old bonding screws in the thru-hulls I got out this way. With a Phillips inserted and pounding the top of it with a hammer while gently tightening the screw, then doing the same to loosen the screw…bingo! All but two I got out without destroying the heads.
Ken
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I did call and talk to PYI this summer and of course they said their props were great, but I should send it in for them to rework it, for $$$$. It has been on the boat now about 12 years with no trouble. Hey, and I don’t mind spending money where it must be spent, I just don’t want to spend money just for the sake of spending. I hate fixing stuff that ain’t broke. There is plenty of opportunity for broke. I may need to spend that $$$ on a new cutlass, and that would leave $ for an electronic toy.
Is there an expected life span of a cutlass bearing? I’ve had my boat for 3 years and I don’t have any record of it being replaced by my PO, so it could easily be 5 to 10 years old. It was probably replaced when the new shaft and MAX PROP was installed in about 02. -
A cutlass bearing can last for many years – almost
indefinitely. However, it can also wear out in a few
months if abraded by a misaligned and/or vibrating prop
shaft. If the shaft really doesn’t move at all when you
jerk it up & down by hand near the strut, then the
cutlass bearing is still good. That’s most of what I
know on that subject. Bob and Rich are much smarter
than I am (really). Maybe they’ll chime in with more
alternatives.Seems to me if everything else is aligned, from engine
to V-drive to shaft, and if the cutlass bearing is also
definitely good, then maybe it’s time to spend the $$$
at PYI. But only IF.BTW, have you been servicing the MaxProp at each
haul-out as they recommend (or did when I had one in
the late 80’s), taking it apart and repacking the
grease, etc?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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If you do a lot of sailing in the Bahamas where the fine silt and sand is, that will also eat away at the shaft under that area covered by the the cutlass bearing.
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Quote:On Jan 14, 2014, at 1:17 PM, “Silverheels” wrote:A cutlass bearing can last for many years – almost
indefinitely. However, it can also wear out in a few
months if abraded by a misaligned and/or vibrating prop
shaft. If the shaft really doesn’t move at all when you
jerk it up & down by hand near the strut, then the
cutlass bearing is still good. That’s most of what I
know on that subject. Bob and Rich are much smarter
than I am (really). Maybe they’ll chime in with more
alternatives.Seems to me if everything else is aligned, from engine
to V-drive to shaft, and if the cutlass bearing is also
definitely good, then maybe it’s time to spend the $$$
at PYI. But only IF.BTW, have you been servicing the MaxProp at each
haul-out as they recommend (or did when I had one in
the late 80’s), taking it apart and repacking the
grease, etc?Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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This MAX PROP has a zerk fitting and I put their recommended grease in it every haul-out, used to be every year up north, now I’m about 18mos to 2 years in the Gulf. My PO was meticulous about it. I packed it 11 months ago before my cruise. I have never had the prop apart.
As a summary here, I think I will take a sharper look at both the cutlass and the prop, and when I pull it, fix the one or both, that doesnt pass the test. -
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I replaced my cutless bearing about 20 years ago. It still seems fine, but I don’t do a lot of motoring, maybe 150hrs/yr. Most of my motoring is done in deep water where the water is clear too. I had an annoying vibration problem many years ago. At about 1600 RPM, the shaft would vibrate, to the point where I didn’t want to run at speeds over 6kts. I removed the shaft and sent it out for inspection. The machine shop put it on a flat table and rolled it. You could see a slight bend at the end near the threads. I’m sure this was the culprit. A new shaft and careful alignment fixed the problem. I replaced everything else at the same time however, prop, v-drive, engine, etc. I can run at 3800 RPM now with only a slight vibration. I usually run at about 2500RPM though. At that speed, the engine purrs and there is almost no vibration. I have a 2.5:1 reduction instead of 2:1 so it’s not as fast as it might sound. If you get everything right, the boat really motors well.
As I recall, when I replaced the cutless, it made an annoying hum for about a year. I think it had to break in or something.
There are two setscrews on the cutless bearing. Paint and bottom growth might make finding them a challenge. Use a flap-sander to clean the skeg. Most boat yards have a special tool to remove the bearing. Even with this, they frequently have to cut them out. It’s a PIA to replace.
Rich
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It takes a while for a worn cutlass bearing to damage
the shaft. This I know from experience. If it’s just
Mobile to Kew West I expect your shaft will survive
intact.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Man, I wish they’d had that zerk fitting in 1988.
Would’ve saved me a lot of dis- and re-assemblies.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
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Seriously? I picked up the same goddamned pot string there. Sorry to hear.
It could be bent prop blade (s) which you’ll know if you do some prop
maintenance.Fortunately for me the engine was off and the line merely twisted off.
My personal belief is that I don’t want anything with fiddly little bits in
a place I can’t get to them, such as folding props or center boards.I’ll take the hit in speed.
Bob
Pardon the brevity. I’m typing this on my phone and I hate typing on my
phone.
On Jan 14, 2014 4:19 PM, “cstewart” wrote:Rich, your comment got me thinking. I remember now that I picked up a
crab pot, really nasty wrap, at 7 mile bridge some time last year. Once I
figured out what the problem was, I cut it out, but often wondered if that
may have bent the prop, or worse, the shaft.
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose
sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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Sounds to me like a slightly bent shaft. I had the same experience when a line got wrapped around the prop and stopped the engine. The shock bent it.
Good luck, I needed a new shaft; quite expensive, unfortunately.
Joe,
(formerly) Half MoonOn Tuesday, January 14, 2014 3:19 PM, cstewart wrote:
Rich, your comment got me thinking. I remember now that I picked up a crab pot, really nasty wrap, at 7 mile bridge some time last year. Once I figured out what the problem was, I cut it out, but often wondered if that may have bent the prop, or worse, the shaft.
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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I swear I caught the same damned pot in the same damned
place in 1978! Had to dive over, adrift in near
darkness, to cut the SOB off my prop.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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That zerk goes into a hole that is normally plugged with a set screw.
After lubing it should be removed.But maybe you were referring to lubricating a relationship… that can’t
be done with a zerk.Pete
On 1/14/2014 3:42 PM, Silverheels wrote:
Quote:Man, I wish they’d had that zerk fitting in 1988.
Would’ve saved me a lot of dis- and re-assemblies.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I’m replacing the prop shaft after the yard lifted the boat by the bronze shaft with their travel lift. They are paying for the replacement but have offered a stainless one with no vanadium or molly in the alloy (no austenite). This means that it will be less corrosion resistant than the original bronze shaft.
What experience with stainless (in its various alloys) vs bronze does this group have?
Tkx
RBRoger
On Jan 14, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Joseph Steiner wrote:
Sounds to me like a slightly bent shaft. I had the same experience when a line got wrapped around the prop and stopped the engine. The shock bent it.
Good luck, I needed a new shaft; quite expensive, unfortunately.
Joe,
(formerly) Half MoonOn Tuesday, January 14, 2014 3:19 PM, cstewart wrote:
Rich, your comment got me thinking. I remember now that I picked up a crab pot, really nasty wrap, at 7 mile bridge some time last year. Once I figured out what the problem was, I cut it out, but often wondered if that may have bent the prop, or worse, the shaft.
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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Roger, I was just yesterday in the shop at Dominey Machine, Brunswick, GA talking SS shafts.
They use strictly Aqualiod (?) 22 the best corrosion resistance made. It goes by a few different names aquamet etc but Tylor, the manager of the shop, says they all come out of the same foundry. The different grades are 17 maybe 19 (?) and 22. He also said to replace with bronze these days could be more than double the cost.
Ken
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I have a stainless shaft and prop. I honestly don’t know what alloy these are made from but for what they cost me it should be gold. Both are holding up fine after approx 7 years. I keep my zincs serviced. I paint the shaft and prop with spray outdrive paint and pettit zinc coat primer. This does nothing for the area inside the stern tube and cutless.
Rich
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I believe aquamet 19 is the most common material used in recreational boats. 21 is really expensive compared to the benefits.
AlanSent from my iPhone
Quote:On Jan 15, 2014, at 12:34 PM, wrote:I have a stainless shaft and prop. I honestly don’t know what alloy these are made from but for what they cost me it should be gold. Both are holding up fine after approx 7 years. I keep my zincs serviced. I paint the shaft and prop with spray outdrive paint and pettit zinc coat primer. This does nothing for the area inside the stern tube and cutless.
Rich
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I must be one of the few left with an original bronze
shaft. I had it trued on a lathe at the local machine
shop a few years ago, but he said it needed very little
tweaking.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Alas, there is one less original bronze shaft in service today. Best of luck with your’s Tor. Other than the damage caused by the hauling incident, there was nothing amiss with the 30 year old bronze shaft on Discoverie, (cutter #203)
Roger
Quote:On Jan 15, 2014, at 3:06 PM, “Silverheels” wrote:I must be one of the few left with an original bronze
shaft. I had it trued on a lathe at the local machine
shop a few years ago, but he said it needed very little
tweaking.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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…another one bites the dust…http://pagetwo88.blogspot.com/2014/01/prop-shaft-terminated.html
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Don’t trash it. They make wonderfully good pry bars around the boat/house. Also good for mounting bird houses in the yard. I have 3 such shafts for those purposes.
AlanSent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2014, at 8:44 PM, “Page Two” wrote:
…another one bites the dust…http://pagetwo88.blogspot.com/2014/01/prop-shaft-terminated.html
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Also bronze makes excellent heads for soft metal hammers.
Roger
On Jan 16, 2014, at 5:59 AM, Alan wrote:
Don’t trash it. They make wonderfully good pry bars around the boat/house. Also good for mounting bird houses in the yard. I have 3 such shafts for those purposes.
AlanSent from my iPhone
On Jan 15, 2014, at 8:44 PM, “Page Two” wrote:
…another one bites the dust…http://pagetwo88.blogspot.com/2014/01/prop-shaft-terminated.html
Ken and Vicky # 91……Writing a New Chapter Page by Page in an Old Book._______________________________________________
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I also just replaced the bronze shaft this spring. The shaft was pitted so the new shaft seal would have leaked. Everyone in the yard said they had not seen a bronze shaft in years. The new one is stainless. After the discussion here I wonder what kind of stainless it may be.
Linus
Live by the currents, plan by the tides and follow the sun
On Jan 15, 2014, at 4:59 PM, Roger Bigger wrote:
Quote:Alas, there is one less original bronze shaft in service today. Best of luck with your’s Tor. Other than the damage caused by the hauling incident, there was nothing amiss with the 30 year old bronze shaft on Discoverie, (cutter #203)Roger
Quote:On Jan 15, 2014, at 3:06 PM, “Silverheels” wrote:I must be one of the few left with an original bronze
shaft. I had it trued on a lathe at the local machine
shop a few years ago, but he said it needed very little
tweaking.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Well guys, I understand your concern of me wasting a good hunk for nothing, but I have an iron 70″ 1 1/2″ octagonal pry bar that I might of paid $2 for at a yard sale years ago.
I figure my bronze shaft, plus the mushroom thru-hulls cashed in at the scrap yard will buy at least one maybe two prop zincs. I’ve been cashing in scrap metal my whole life and have made literally, thousands of useful dollars. Just the aluminum windows from my last home were over $460.I’ll sell it for $30 and with a 424 Forum discount you can have it for $20
Ken
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Aqumet 22 is the product a reputable machine shop will provide. Also sold under the name Aqualoy.
Maxprop blades can be a source of vibration. Only PYI has the facility to balance these (that I am aware). Speak with Jerome when you call them. $350 plus shipping I think was the cost for the last one I sent out.
The V-drive is aligned the prop shaft coupler. Properly aligned the tolerance should be less than .003 of an inch. This also can be a source of vibration. The V-drive alignment procedure is very specific and the instructions should be followed. This is an hour of a mechanics time well invested.
A loose or improperly seated coupler can be a source of vibration. The coupler should be ‘mated’ to the shaft by the machinist making the shaft. We almost NEVER re-use the old coupler (there are exceptions).
A bent shaft can also be a source of vibration.
A worn cutless usually doesn’t create a dramatic vibration unless it is so worn that the shaft is floating in it. At this point the shaft is probably being damaged.
Having all these items checked out at once will likely eliminate an alignment issue. Seldom is there ‘one’ smoking gun. Usually it is a combination of things that over time made the problem noticeable.
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