RE: staysail

[Tor]

Hey Bob,
A couple more questions on your staysail rig installation (this time through the group in case there are some other thoughts out there):
1) You mentioned that the tangs & halyard block attachments you used on the mast are “all very standard fittings.” Where did you buy them?
2) After considering your under-deck support, i.e., the turnbuckle connecting a foredeck backing plate to a broad plate fastened to the chain locker bulkhead, it seems to me there’s an alternative that might suit me better. Would appreciate your take on the attached sketches of something I can have my welder whip up in either 3/16″ stainless or 1/4″ aluminum. My boat has a 6″ wide, flat stringer of what seems like 1/2″ or 3/4″ plywood ‘glassed into the underside of the foredeck, running fore & aft from the chain locker bulkhead to the leading edge of the coachhouse. I can feel it distinctly beneath the overhead fabric cover. Hence, my deck backing plate measures 6″ wide in the drawings, flaring out to a wider bulkhead plate to spread that stress. The welded knee connecting those plates makes the whole thing super rigid. I don’t see any need for that to be adjustable, as with a turnbuckle. Do you?

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[unabated]

Tor,
On Jack Tylers website “WHOOSH” – access through John Stevensons site – has drawings of the foredeck bracket and the mast tang. I used both of those on my boat for the Solent stay installation. The bracket that you have designed is essentially the one that Jack has. Easy to weld up and easy to install. (although double check the “depth” of your anchor locker)
alan

— On Tue, 1/27/09, Silver Heels <> wrote:

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[madsailor]

Hi Tor,

I am sure that any mast manufacturer can supply fittings for your mast – they may not be identical to mine because mine are old now, but attaching stuff to an aluminum mast is an old technology well known and well supported. I'd check Rig Rite or Metalmast or a company in Florida who rebuilds spars (JSI, I think). I didn't install the staysail – it was one of the many reasons I purchased Pelican rather than any of the other 424s for sale here. Also, many of them here were in extraordinarily bad condition at exhorbitant prices, but that's another story.

If I understand your drawings correctly, you are building a rather largish gussetted plate. The distance from the anchor well bulkhead to the pad eye isn't all that much, and I, too, seem to have a thick something or other where the pad eye goes through. There is no reason not to use the plate arrangement you've drawn (if I understand it properly) and it will work equally well, if not better. As I said, I didn't install mine so it is what it is. I do know it was all designed by a naval architect so I'm hoping he knew what he was doing. So far, so good.

I could caution you this way: on the gussett, make sure the edges are rounded. If you use your v-berth for anything, you will hit your head on it. Since you are welding this thing, you could change the gussett for a round SS tube, or even weld a tube to the edge for protection.

I have also seen the tiedown go from the deck through the bunk and tie to the stem just forward of the water tank or where the water tank had been. That's valid, too, but makes the v-berth virtually unusable.

Bob

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Hey Bob,
A couple more questions on your staysail rig installation (this time through the group in case there are some other thoughts out there):
1) You mentioned that the tangs & halyard block attachments you used on the mast are “all very standard fittings.” Where did you buy them?
2) After considering your under-deck support, i.e., the turnbuckle connecting a foredeck backing plate to a broad plate fastened to the chain locker bulkhead, it seems to me there's an alternative that might suit me better. Would appreciate your take on the attached sketches of something I can have my welder whip up in either 3/16″ stainless or 1/4″ aluminum. My boat has a 6″ wide, flat stringer of what seems like 1/2″ or 3/4″ plywood 'glassed into the underside of the foredeck, running fore & aft from the chain locker bulkhead to the leading edge of the coachhouse. I can feel it distinctly beneath the overhead fabric cover. Hence, my deck backing plate measures 6″ wide in the drawings, flaring out to a wider bulkhead plate to spread that stress. The welded knee connecting those plates makes the whole thing super rigid. I don't see any need for that to be adjustable, as with a turnbuckle. Do you?

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8

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[Tor]

Thanks, Alan. I’m not doing a Solent stay, but would like to look at those Whoosh fittings if anyone can provide a URL.

I did measure my chain locker bulkhead, inside and out. It will accommodate the 12″ height of the plate I drew.

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Tor]

Bob,

I’m inclined to have the mast fitting for the staysail stay & halyard block wrap around the mast a bit more than yours does, although since yours has held up I’m sure it’s is fine. I’ll check with those spar makers before I make something up myself. Thanks for the suggestions.

I’m planning to mount my staysail’s deck fitting farther aft than your PO did, probably 5-6″ from the after edge of the chain locker bulkhead. Hence, the longer plate. You’re right about the head-splitting edge of that gusset, though, and I will definitely do something to modify it.

I’ve seen the cable to the base of the stem you mention, which splits the V-berth. I prefer our approach.

Thanks again,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[john stevenson]

Tor,
The link to Jack Tyler's writeup on the Solent. The mast fitting he had fabricated sounds similar to what you are looking for. I went with a standard Wichard fitting for my mast attachment. You can find my solution by going to the SVSarah link and then clicking on the upgrades menu.

http://www.svsarah.com/Whoosh/WhooshPrepMods.htm

John

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Quote:

Bob,

I'm inclined to have the mast fitting for the staysail stay & halyard block wrap around the mast a bit more than yours does, although since yours has held up I'm sure it's is fine. I'll check with those spar makers before I make something up myself. Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm planning to mount my staysail's deck fitting farther aft than your PO did, probably 5-6″ from the after edge of the chain locker bulkhead. Hence, the longer plate. You're right about the head-splitting edge of that gusset, though, and I will definitely do something to modify it.

I've seen the cable to the base of the stem you mention, which splits the V-berth. I prefer our approach.

Thanks again,

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Tor]

Thanks, John. Yes, Jack’s fittings are very similar to what I want for my staysail. However, unlike a Solent stay my staysail stay will fasten to the middle of the foredeck. A protruding deck fitting there would be a guaranteed toe-breaker whenever the stay is removed. So I’m going to shell out the bucks for the Wichard folding double pad-eye that Bob Fine used.

I happened to scroll down the svsarah.com page for which you sent me a link (below). Your mini-article on windvanes and tiller pilots is excellent! Well written and right on. I am this very day ordering an Auto-Helm windvane from Scanmar Marine (same guys that build Monitor windvanes), and will be setting up a tiller pilot with that almost exactly as you did. I’m using an Auto-Helm brand windvane primarily because it’s the only model I found that allows me to simultaneously use my davits. (I also like the independent “2nd” rudder.)

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[john stevenson]

Tor,
The tiller pilot writeup was also by Jack Tyler. All of the articles in the Whoosh section of my website were written by Jack & Patricia, I'm just their publisher. My boat articles are under the SV Sarah link at the top of the page.

John

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:

Quote:

Thanks, John. Yes, Jack's fittings are very similar to what I want for my staysail. However, unlike a Solent stay my staysail stay will fasten to the middle of the foredeck. A protruding deck fitting there would be a guaranteed toe-breaker whenever the stay is removed. So I'm going to shell out the bucks for the Wichard folding double pad-eye that Bob Fine used.

I happened to scroll down the svsarah.com page for which you sent me a link (below). Your mini-article on windvanes and tiller pilots is excellent! Well written and right on. I am this very day ordering an Auto-Helm windvane from Scanmar Marine (same guys that build Monitor windvanes), and will be setting up a tiller pilot with that almost exactly as you did. I'm using an Auto-Helm brand windvane primarily because it's the only model I found that allows me to simultaneously use my davits. (I also like the independent “2nd” rudder.)

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Tor]

Well, then, kudos to Jack Tyler for a well-written piece (and to you for having the good taste to publish it!).

Tor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[sumocean]

Always trying to get out cheap sometimes I wind up making a mess but the idea of using a tiller pilot as a backup auto pilot seems like a great idea. ($350.00 not $3500.00) Only thing is I don’t have windvane steering or a main autopilot yet but I do have stainless pipe and can find or make a rudder and collect some bearings. How trailer park would it look to put a small rudder on the stern just for the tillerpilot. It would take up very little room and should be easy and inexpensive to fabricate and I do soooo! want an auto pilot. I have a swim platform it could go right through and be out of the way. I will have to come up with a way to store it. Either simply disconnnect and lift up the entire shaft or pull a pin and have just the rudder kick up or come off the shaft. If it were just disconnected from the tillerpilot and allowed to stay in the water it shouldn’t create much drag. Just rambling now so let me know just how stupid this sounds. I do need another project to dream about.

Linus

[Tor]

Linus,

I think you’re right on with this idea! I’ve just ordered an Auto-Helm windvane from Scanmar Marine, the same outfit that makes Monitor windvanes. Their Auto-Helm (no relation to Autohelm autopilots) design incorporates an independent, removable outboard rudder mounted on the lower transom. This rudder steers the boat while the vessel’s own steering system is centered and locked. It is in turn “steered” by an efficient trim tab, which is steered by the unit’s airvane when sailing, or can be steered by a tiller pilot when motoring. I’m convinced this combination is the most efficient, most secure self-steering arrangement for a long-range cruising sailboat, combining wind steering when sailing with relatively inexpensive, low-draw electric autopilot steering when motoring, plus a completely independent emergency steering system if the boat’s primary steering should ever fail.

What you’re considering – connecting a tiller pilot to an independent outboard rudder – is essentially a tiller pilot plus the lower half of the Auto-Helm system. It’ll work – and will work more efficiently if you add a trim tab onto the rudder as they have done – but you’ll be missing out on the electricity-free steering by the wind, and the security of an alterative self-steering system that’s completely independent of the boat’s electrical system.

Anyway, take a look at the Auto-Helm’s rudder (illustrations attached). It may give you some ideas for your project. And Linus, if a second, outboard rudder looks “trailer park,” then hey, call me trailer trash. I’ve been called worse.

🙂
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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