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On 6/18/09 8:04 AM, james zimmer <> wrote:
I recently looked at a 1979 Pearson 424 ketch located in Ohio .The
boat has been sailed in fresh water exclusively and appears to be
in very good condition .Before buying I would have a survey completed
. I am not familiar with the v-drive system and would appreciate
comments ( pros / cons ) from owners concerning reliability and
maintenance issues . I looked at the hours on the Tac and it showed
185 hours .I asked the owner how many hours were on the engine and he
said he has lost track of the exact number since replacing the old Tac
but thought around 1300 hours were close .I thought this was odd
because most owners use the hours as reminders for various maintenance
schedules. Are there any other methods of determining approximate
hours ?
I recently sold my Catalina 36 and assumed my boat owner days were
over at age 65 . However ,I have always loved the site of the 424
ketch under full sail and now this boat is there for the taking. Any
suggestions ,comments in general , about the boat and it’s systems are
welcomed .Thanks , Jim .
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The V-drive is pretty rock solid – although it does have a couple of failure modes. Since it's spent its life in fresh water the jacket should be relatively rust free, but you could look into it by taking the top off. When checking the oil in the drive there should be no water (duh).
Many people do maintenance by season – fall is change oil and filters for the winter, spring change zincs and other consumables. Or whatever. The oil change interval is usually something like every 100 hours and most casual cruisers put that on each season (or less depending on your area and winds). So, in my opinion, there may be nothing unusual with the lack of hour knowledge.
For your survey, however, I'd do an engine oil analysis. Which engine is in there? If it's a Westerbeke W60, it's original. If anything else, it's been replaced.
One thing you'll like about the 424 is that the rig is very easily managed with little effort up until you get to gale conditions (then I don't care what boat you have it'll be difficult). The key words for the 424 is 'no drama'. They are stable and generally strong and can be pushed hard. Others on them could tell you better stories than I, and there are a fair number of them who are near your age (I think).
On a '79 boat that has been cared for many of the systems will not be original. If they are you'll be spending time replacing stuff on a regular basis. Check the hoses and through-hulls specifically. Other then that, you should get a competent surveyor.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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If the owner does not produce a credible maintenance log, run, don’t
walk, away.Info @ pearson424 wrote:
On 6/18/09 8:04 AM, james zimmer <> wrote:
I recently looked at a 1979 Pearson 424 ketch located in Ohio .The
boat has been sailed in fresh water exclusively and appears to be in
very good condition .Before buying I would have a survey completed .
I am not familiar with the v-drive system and would appreciate
comments ( pros / cons ) from owners concerning reliability and
maintenance issues . I looked at the hours on the Tac and it showed
185 hours .I asked the owner how many hours were on the engine and he
said he has lost track of the exact number since replacing the old
Tac but thought around 1300 hours were close .I thought this was odd
because most owners use the hours as reminders for various
maintenance schedules. Are there any other methods of determining
approximate hours ?
I recently sold my Catalina 36 and assumed my boat owner days were
over at age 65 . However ,I have always loved the site of the 424
ketch under full sail and now this boat is there for the taking. Any
suggestions ,comments in general , about the boat and it’s systems
are welcomed .Thanks , Jim .
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Jim,
It would be odd for an owner to replace the original tach and not save it for reference. Without it, there’s no way to prove engine hours. This alone is no reason to worry however. A good diesel should run for well over 10,000 hours. Most seasonal users probably run their engine between 100 and 200 hours/yr. If this is the original engine, estimate about 5000 hours. What’s important is how well it runs. Does it start when cold? Does it vibrate or blow smoke when pressed to cruising speed? Is the idle smooth at typical idle speed (approx 650rpm)? Is there black soot in the transom? Is the V-drive dip-stick clear or is the oil brown and milky in appearance (sign of water contamination). Parts for the W60 are dear and in some cases very difficult to find. It may serve for many more years before needing a replacement however. External stuff such as injectors, starter, alternator and water pumps are available. A rebuild is probably not economical.If there are signs of mechanical problems with the engine or running gear, have a respected mechanic come and inspect the engine and running gear. A typical surveyer can’t do the kind of tests that would be required. A good machinery inspection may run several hundred dollars. If the mechanic provides a written estimate to fix whatever he finds, it may be leverage to use when making an offer. I wouldn’t expect the seller to discount dollar-for-dollar for what’s in the estimate, but if it shows that big repairs are needed you might get some relief.
Regards
Rich – BlackSheep #47
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Jim:
I just purchased Lady Leanne last fall. IMHO if the hull is sound and the rig is solid, the 424 Ketch is hard to beat. LL has 5K hours and the engine runs smooth as a baby’s ass. I did have to rebuild the v drive ($800). I’ve also redone the interior. But I now have a solid yacht to sail the islands (and maybe further) at a reasonable price. I’ve pushed her hard off of O’ahu and she just giggles and charges forward.
Don’t forget about the experience behind 424 website. If you are going to buy an old boat, it sure helps to go where someone has gone before!
Dan Kalinowski
Lady Leanne II (135)
Honolulu -
Jim,
I agree with whoever suggested having an oil sample analysis done. It will provide a pretty good summary of the engine’s level of internal wear and tear, assuming the engine oil hasn’t just been changed.
I disagree with the idea of not buying a boat just because there is no maintenance record. Most yacht owners don’t keep good records of this sort, so the lack does not indicate much, good or bad.
Personally, if I were buying an older used boat again I would look first in the Great Lakes region. Generally speaking, northern boats age at less than half the rate of vessels in year-around sailing climates, and freshwater boats (not made of wood) tend to be wonderfully preserved compared to their saltwater sisters. My 424 lived her first 15 years in the Lakes (and was lightly used even after she left). Her relatively “young” condition is probably the main reason I bought her. I often read in this group about extreme deterioration of one thing or another in a 424, and smile at how fortunate I am to have even a half-freshwater boat.
Tor
(now anchored in Beaufort, NC)
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Jim makes a good point about fresh water boats. We purchased a Hunter 33.5 new in ’88 and keep her on our Georgia lakehouse dock. She’s never seen salt and with a fresh wash and a coat of wax she looks like new…….even the engine. With a freshwater history you can’t go far wrong.
Dan Kalinowski
Lady Leanne (#135)
Honolulu -
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Hi Bob,
I have not heard of there being any issues specific to 424 fuel tanks, but these boats are now at least 35 years old, so the fuel tank and lines should of course be inspected carefully. Our fuel tank is aluminum. It is likely original and it seems fine. No corrosion or leaks.
Access is decent. You can see the top, forward, aft, port, and starboard sides of the tank easily through the cockpit lockers.
Ryan
1983 424 Ketch
Juniper
New York -
You should take a close look at the fuel tank. There is at least one 424 for sale that has a fuel tank that won’t hold fuel and you have to remove the engine to get at it. Aluminum tanks have a history of problems, so much so that the USCG released a safety circular regarding them…
Where is the ’79 Cutter? I’ve looked at most of them now in my searchand might have photos I can send you.
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Bryan Bywalec
S/V Pelican, Hull 209
Siren Engineering, LLC-
Mine has steel tanks (2) that replaced the original single tank.
Not exactly sure why the PO did that but I would imagine it was MUCH easier to put two side-by-side smaller tanks in that amount to more capacity than one single one of the same or less capacity.Generally when a PO splits the tankage in two like that it is so that the tanks can be removed via the cockpit locker hatches in the future. If you ever have to pull them out you might check to see if they come out that way before pulling the engine.
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Bryan Bywalec
S/V Pelican, Hull 209
Siren Engineering, LLC1 user thanked author for this post.
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Read through these forums and you find a few stories of tanks that leak or are close to it. Most seem to change the tank out when they have the engine out for one reason or another since the tank cannot be lulled without first removing the engine. Mine has steel tanks (2) that replaced the original single tank.
Not exactly sure why the PO did that but I would imagine it was MUCH easier to put two side-by-side smaller tanks in that amount to more capacity than one single one of the same or less capacity. -
I would definitely plan on replacing any original aluminum fuel tank even if there are no visible leaks.
I replaced mine during the re-power project as good practice based on what others had posted on this site. I’m glad I did because there was a pinhole sized leak at the bottom of the tank where it rested on a wooden support. The support beam was soaked with diesel and had absorbed a majority of the leak.
The cost wasn’t too high — I believe the tank was about $1,000 with a digital and analog fuel sender + a few additional fuel pickups. The hassle was getting the engine out of the way to replace the tank — it wasn’t as big of a deal as I thought it would be.
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The problem with the original tanks is a mistake made by the builder. The wood frame is fastened together with bronze staples. The heads of these contact the aluminum tank. Galvanic corrosion causes pinholes in the bottom of the tank where contact is made. If the tank has already been replaced once, I wouldn’t be concerned. If the tank is not leaking, you should keep an eye on it. You’ll see fuel accumulate under the engine and soak the diapers you put there if it leaks.
A leaky tank is not that big a deal but it’s a bit tedious to replace. You can pull the engine and push it forward on rollers to access the tank cradle. It’s a day’s work to pull it and another to put it back. Ask for details if you need to do this.Rich
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