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Honestly, Tor, I’m glad you tried it – frankly I had the same idea…
I love PVC! With the exception of long runs over flexible surfaces, it’s great. I’d redo the whole boat in it if I had the time and , well, the inclination.
I’d love to see how you fare with the PVC thing.
BOb
—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kiddingPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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One thing to watch out for with PVC; I plumbed the cockpit drains in my old sailboat with PVC. Water froze in the pipes and they shattered. This wouldn’t be an issue in warmer climates, but it could be in colder cruising areas. You should be OK if the pipes are in the bilge, but I’d be cautious of using the stuff where it might get cold.
Rich
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Rich,
Sounds like one more reason to head south. Winter is just about over here on the Chesapeake. I can’t wait to put my winter clothes back in vacuum sealed plastic. Hopefully they never come out of those bags.Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Rich,
I’ve heard this admonition before. When you say, “Water froze in the pipes and they shattered,” do you mean you had the seacocks closed so that the pipes filled with water, which then froze?
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Tor
No seacocks involved. This all happened about 30 years ago. The boat was a Grampian 30. It is similar to a Pearson 30, but not quite as well built. The cockpit had four drains, one in each corner. The drains ran out the back of the trasom to a pair of through-hulls just above the waterline. I took the boat out for a sail one day late in the fall and observed that the automatic bilge pump was on. I returned to the mooring and investigated. The PVC pipe that I used to connect the deck drains had shattered. When the boat heeled over on either tack, one of the through-hulls was under water. This allowed water to back-down the drain pipe. Since the PVC was in pieces, it drained directly into the bilge. The way this particlar boat was designed, water would sometimes back down the drain pipe into the cockpit. This would get your feet wet.I surmised that the PVC pipes had collected water which froze in the pipe. This can happen if you get a cold spell followed by rain and sleet. Once the pipe was obstructed, it subsequently filled with water and froze. The PVC pipe is brittle and shattered.
The cockpit drains were originally connected with steel-reinforced rubber hose. I never liked the hose because it drooped between the drain fittings and would never completely drain overboard. I replaced with PVC because I figured that I could pitch the pipe enough to insure that it would drain. I never considered what would happen if water froze in there. I was lucky. Under different circumstances, the boat might have sunk. The moral here is to be sure that any water that might collect inside PVC pipes won’t freeze.
Rich
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John
I’ve heard that weather from the Chessapeake to points south can be less than tolerable in late summer. I guess that’s why folks with time on their hands migrate up and down the coast.I’ve got a day-job that keeps me tied to the Northeast. Maybe when I’m retired I can join the migrating herd.
Rich
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Thanks for sharing that story, Rich. I wonder, though, if any pipe material would stand up to being filled with water and then frozen. Seems like that’d burst whatever confined pipe, hose or tube it’s in, whether PVC or something else. Or would it? Is there some kind of marine plumbing that could withstand that pressure?
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Rich,
I've definitely experienced weather that was too cold, but seldom weather that is too hot. When it is really hot I just jump over the side and cool off. Of course that means leaving the Chesapeake after July 1 or donning a jelly suit.On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Rich Carter <
(<email address>)> wrote: John
I've heard that weather from the Chessapeake to points south can be less than tolerable in late summer. I guess that's why folks with time on their hands migrate up and down the coast.I've got a day-job that keeps me tied to the Northeast. Maybe when I'm retired I can join the migrating herd.
Rich
From: John Stevenson [mailto:
("><email address>)]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:48 PMTo: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chestRich,
Sounds like one more reason to head south. Winter is just about over here on the Chesapeake. I can't wait to put my winter clothes back in vacuum sealed plastic. Hopefully they never come out of those bags.On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Rich Carter <
(<email address>)> wrote: One thing to watch out for with PVC; I plumbed the cockpit drains in my old sailboat with PVC. Water froze in the pipes and they shattered. This wouldn't be an issue in warmer climates, but it could be in colder cruising areas. You should be OK if the pipes are in the bilge, but I'd be cautious of using the stuff where it might get cold.
Rich
From: Robert Fine [mailto:
(<email address>)] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:06 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chestHonestly, Tor, I'm glad you tried it – frankly I had the same idea…
I love PVC! With the exception of long runs over flexible surfaces, it's great. I'd redo the whole boat in it if I had the time and , well, the inclination.
I'd love to see how you fare with the PVC thing.
BOb
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Silver Heels <
( Hi Bob,
I've already done what you describe for the shower sump – a simple strainer and pump, with the switch by the shower stall – and I'm happy with it. It only lacks a plastic grate in the stall to keep my feet out of the water that puddles in the shower pan between sumps.
I am also of the same mind regarding the PVC seachest. I believe I first saw one in Steve Dashew's “Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia” – he used to put them in his innovative Sundeer boats. Recycling the old Pearson sump box just seemed like a handier way to go when I got to that project on my list, but now I'm not so sure. I have already used PVC plumbing for various other applications in the boat and like the medium in general.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Robert Fine [mailto:("><email address>)]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 5:21 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chest – EpilogueHi Tor,
I like your idea, but I think I'll make my seachest out of 6″ PVC pipe with endcaps -Someone else here did something similar.
I'm thinking of taking the sump out altogether as a simple strainer and pump would be far more useful. I have the switch in the head anyway since there's no automatic float in the sump. Also, it would give me much better access to the bilge now that I put a holding tank in there.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Silver Heels <
(<email address>)> wrote: Paul,
This afternoon I tried out my seachest, converted from the old shower sump box. Boy, you were right about the water
pressure (2 emails below)! That rigid lid in which I had such confidence bulged up noticeably when I opened the seacock
and pressurized the box. Everything held and the system works as intended, but now I'm not comfortable with the strength
of it for the long term. I'll either beef up the box & lid with additional fiberglass, or just scrap that altogether and
build something more substantial from scratch.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Silver Heels [mailto:(">
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 1:19 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chest
Hey Paul,
I believe it was Hans Solo who said, “Never tell me the odds!”
I intentionally placed the thru-hull for the intake seachest down low so that it would produce positive water
pressure,
thinking this would assist all systems to draw more easily and have an ample supply of water flowing back into the
seachest. The intake is also forward of all discharge thru-hulls to help insure it draws clean water. The fiberglass
sump box in my boat is pretty hefty. No way the water pressure you describe is going to break it. It'd take a
hard blow
with a small sledge to do that. The lid is 1/8″ solid 'glass, perfectly rigid, and secured by about 30 screws. I think
it'll suit admirably, but the proof will be in the use. I'll let you know how it all works out.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Paul Lefebvre [mailto:(
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 12:56 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chest
Tor:
While it looks like you have already done most of the work on the shower
drain, you may find one of the following of interest. I recently purchased
on of these as my hose fittings on the hold sump had failed. Being self
contained, along with a float switch, means you can leave it always on and
never have to worry about the shower drain. The pump inside is a low cost
Rule bilge pump, so replacement when it breaks should be pretty easy.http://www.boatersland.com/ru97shdrkit.html
The work you have down on the sea-chest looks good and that looks like a
great way to reuse the old fiberglass shower sump. However, the engineer in
me isn't very comfortable using a component designed to be at atmospheric
pressure as a pressure vessel. Even if it only saw a 3 ft head of water,
this would generate 1.5 psi pressure With the cover at 8″ x 15″ or 120
square inches, this would generate 180 lbs of pressure on the cover. It may
even be more than this in healed or high waves. This unit may be able to
withstand this, but it is almost 30 years old and it does now have 7 or 8
new 1″ holes in it.Hopefully it holds well when you check it out in the near future.
Paul
Boundless #28From: “Silver Heels” <
(">
Reply-To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
To:
Subject: shower sump & seachest
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:10:22 -0500Good day Bob,
The shower sump pump had died some time in the past and the PO, lazy…
fellow that he was, simply allowed the shower to drain into the bilge. This
is a practice more common than you might suppose, but one I have never
tolerated on my own boats. I plumbed the shower drain directly to a 12-v
water pump (with an inline strainer just before it) mounted at the bottom
of
the locker beneath the head sink, and from there overboard. I have to
switch
on the sump pump several times in the course of showering, when water
begins
to puddle in the shower pan, but I located the switch just outside the
shower stall so it's easy to reach it. I'm looking for some kind of plastic
grating to set down in the shower stall, raised up an inch or so off the
sole, to keep my delicate toes out of the water that puddles in between
sumps, but I'm basically happy with the set up even now.The intake seachest draws from a dedicated thru-hull that I installed about
6″ forward and lower than the box. It feeds everything in the boat that
uses
seawater except the engine, which has it's own, dedicated seacock. I must
say, though, that I have not actually sealed and tested this seachest yet.
Soon. It's on the list.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Robert Fine [mailto:(<email address>)]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:01 AM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: Raw Water strainer placement
Hi Tor,
Where does your shower drain now? Also, where does the water for the
sea
chest come from?Thanks,
Bob
On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Silver Heels <
(<email address>)> wrote: Eric,
I moved my raw water strainer from it's original position. Where it
was
blocked access to the shower sump box, which I converted to a seawater
intake seachest (although I left the engine's raw water intake separate,
with it's own seacock). As you can see in the attached photo I only moved
the Groco off to the side. That worked out well.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Eric Lorentzon [mailto:(<email address>)]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Raw Water strainer placement
Hi Folks –
I am replacing the simple in-line water strainer (oem) on my '79
424.
Looking for advice on placement / mounting for the Perko that just arrived
from Santa – or maybe it was an early easterbunny dropping…..Also should
I
replace the raw water intake while it is out of the water too – it is OEM
as
well.Thanks –
Eric
“Navasana” #70
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Your data on the web your way. No kidding
—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kidding—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hi Tor,
PEX tubing survives freezing very well – I've seen it expand to twice its normal size. Would I depend on it? No, but it seems to work in homes. I'm not sure they make it that large.
For cockpit drains, you could use the bilge pump hose that will expand just fine.
Bob
On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Thanks for sharing that story, Rich. I wonder, though, if any pipe material would stand up to being filled with water and then frozen. Seems like that'd burst whatever confined pipe, hose or tube it's in, whether PVC or something else. Or would it? Is there some kind of marine plumbing that could withstand that pressure?
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Rich Carter [mailto: ()]Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 2:14 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: RE: PVC plumbing
Tor
No seacocks involved. This all happened about 30 years ago. The boat was a Grampian 30. It is similar to a Pearson 30, but not quite as well built. The cockpit had four drains, one in each corner. The drains ran out the back of the trasom to a pair of through-hulls just above the waterline. I took the boat out for a sail one day late in the fall and observed that the automatic bilge pump was on. I returned to the mooring and investigated. The PVC pipe that I used to connect the deck drains had shattered. When the boat heeled over on either tack, one of the through-hulls was under water. This allowed water to back-down the drain pipe. Since the PVC was in pieces, it drained directly into the bilge. The way this particlar boat was designed, water would sometimes back down the drain pipe into the cockpit. This would get your feet wet.I surmised that the PVC pipes had collected water which froze in the pipe. This can happen if you get a cold spell followed by rain and sleet. Once the pipe was obstructed, it subsequently filled with water and froze. The PVC pipe is brittle and shattered.
The cockpit drains were originally connected with steel-reinforced rubber hose. I never liked the hose because it drooped between the drain fittings and would never completely drain overboard. I replaced with PVC because I figured that I could pitch the pipe enough to insure that it would drain. I never considered what would happen if water froze in there. I was lucky. Under different circumstances, the boat might have sunk. The moral here is to be sure that any water that might collect inside PVC pipes won't freeze.
Rich
From: Silver Heels [mailto: ()]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 7:14 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: PVC plumbingRich,
I've heard this admonition before. When you say, “Water froze in the pipes and they shattered,” do you mean you had the seacocks closed so that the pipes filled with water, which then froze?
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Rich Carter [mailto: ()]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:39 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chestOne thing to watch out for with PVC; I plumbed the cockpit drains in my old sailboat with PVC. Water froze in the pipes and they shattered. This wouldn't be an issue in warmer climates, but it could be in colder cruising areas. You should be OK if the pipes are in the bilge, but I'd be cautious of using the stuff where it might get cold.
Rich
From: Robert Fine [mailto: ()]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:06 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chestHonestly, Tor, I'm glad you tried it – frankly I had the same idea…
I love PVC! With the exception of long runs over flexible surfaces, it's great. I'd redo the whole boat in it if I had the time and , well, the inclination.
I'd love to see how you fare with the PVC thing.
BOb
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi Bob,
I've already done what you describe for the shower sump – a simple strainer and pump, with the switch by the shower stall – and I'm happy with it. It only lacks a plastic grate in the stall to keep my feet out of the water that puddles in the shower pan between sumps.
I am also of the same mind regarding the PVC seachest. I believe I first saw one in Steve Dashew's “Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia” – he used to put them in his innovative Sundeer boats. Recycling the old Pearson sump box just seemed like a handier way to go when I got to that project on my list, but now I'm not so sure. I have already used PVC plumbing for various other applications in the boat and like the medium in general.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Robert Fine [mailto: ()]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 5:21 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
Subject: Re: shower sump & sea-chest – EpilogueHi Tor,
I like your idea, but I think I'll make my seachest out of 6″ PVC pipe with endcaps -Someone else here did something similar.
I'm thinking of taking the sump out altogether as a simple strainer and pump would be far more useful. I have the switch in the head anyway since there's no automatic float in the sump. Also, it would give me much better access to the bilge now that I put a holding tank in there.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Paul,
This afternoon I tried out my seachest, converted from the old shower sump box. Boy, you were right about the water
pressure (2 emails below)! That rigid lid in which I had such confidence bulged up noticeably when I opened the seacock
and pressurized the box. Everything held and the system works as intended, but now I'm not comfortable with the strength
of it for the long term. I'll either beef up the box & lid with additional fiberglass, or just scrap that altogether and
build something more substantial from scratch.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Silver Heels [mailto: ()]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 1:19 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chest
Hey Paul,
I believe it was Hans Solo who said, “Never tell me the odds!”
I intentionally placed the thru-hull for the intake seachest down low so that it would produce positive water
pressure,
thinking this would assist all systems to draw more easily and have an ample supply of water flowing back into the
seachest. The intake is also forward of all discharge thru-hulls to help insure it draws clean water. The fiberglass
sump box in my boat is pretty hefty. No way the water pressure you describe is going to break it. It'd take a
hard blow
with a small sledge to do that. The lid is 1/8″ solid 'glass, perfectly rigid, and secured by about 30 screws. I think
it'll suit admirably, but the proof will be in the use. I'll let you know how it all works out.Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Paul Lefebvre [mailto: ()]Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 12:56 PM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: RE: shower sump & sea-chest
Tor:
While it looks like you have already done most of the work on the shower
drain, you may find one of the following of interest. I recently purchased
on of these as my hose fittings on the hold sump had failed. Being self
contained, along with a float switch, means you can leave it always on and
never have to worry about the shower drain. The pump inside is a low cost
Rule bilge pump, so replacement when it breaks should be pretty easy.http://www.boatersland.com/ru97shdrkit.html
The work you have down on the sea-chest looks good and that looks like a
great way to reuse the old fiberglass shower sump. However, the engineer in
me isn't very comfortable using a component designed to be at atmospheric
pressure as a pressure vessel. Even if it only saw a 3 ft head of water,
this would generate 1.5 psi pressure With the cover at 8″ x 15″ or 120
square inches, this would generate 180 lbs of pressure on the cover. It may
even be more than this in healed or high waves. This unit may be able to
withstand this, but it is almost 30 years old and it does now have 7 or 8
new 1″ holes in it.Hopefully it holds well when you check it out in the near future.
Paul
Boundless #28From: “Silver Heels” < ([email][/email])>
Reply-To: Mailing List (Mailing List)
To:
Subject: shower sump & seachest
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:10:22 -0500Good day Bob,
The shower sump pump had died some time in the past and the PO, lazy…
fellow that he was, simply allowed the shower to drain into the bilge. This
is a practice more common than you might suppose, but one I have never
tolerated on my own boats. I plumbed the shower drain directly to a 12-v
water pump (with an inline strainer just before it) mounted at the bottom
of
the locker beneath the head sink, and from there overboard. I have to
switch
on the sump pump several times in the course of showering, when water
begins
to puddle in the shower pan, but I located the switch just outside the
shower stall so it's easy to reach it. I'm looking for some kind of plastic
grating to set down in the shower stall, raised up an inch or so off the
sole, to keep my delicate toes out of the water that puddles in between
sumps, but I'm basically happy with the set up even now.The intake seachest draws from a dedicated thru-hull that I installed about
6″ forward and lower than the box. It feeds everything in the boat that
uses
seawater except the engine, which has it's own, dedicated seacock. I must
say, though, that I have not actually sealed and tested this seachest yet.
Soon. It's on the list.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Robert Fine [mailto: ()]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:01 AM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: Re: Raw Water strainer placement
Hi Tor,
Where does your shower drain now? Also, where does the water for the
sea
chest come from?Thanks,
Bob
On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Eric,
I moved my raw water strainer from it's original position. Where it
was
blocked access to the shower sump box, which I converted to a seawater
intake seachest (although I left the engine's raw water intake separate,
with it's own seacock). As you can see in the attached photo I only moved
the Groco off to the side. That worked out well.
Tor
Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
Original Message
From: Eric Lorentzon [mailto: ()]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 8:31 AM
To: Mailing List (Mailing List)Subject: Raw Water strainer placement
Hi Folks –
I am replacing the simple in-line water strainer (oem) on my '79
424.
Looking for advice on placement / mounting for the Perko that just arrived
from Santa – or maybe it was an early easterbunny dropping…..Also should
I
replace the raw water intake while it is out of the water too – it is OEM
as
well.Thanks –
Eric
“Navasana” #70
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
Search.
To unsubscribe, e-mail: ()For additional commands, e-mail: ()
—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kidding
To unsubscribe, e-mail: ()No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 – Release Date: 3/1/2008 5:41 PMNo virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 – Release Date: 3/1/2008 5:41 PMTo unsubscribe, e-mail: ()
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 – Release Date: 3/1/2008 5:41 PMNo virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1317 – Release Date: 3/7/2008 8:15 AM
To unsubscribe, e-mail: ()
For additional commands, e-mail: ()—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kidding—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kidding—
Bob Fine
Fine Software LLC
Your data on the web your way. No kiddingPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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