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Aloha to All
We are getting ready to install a new LPG Seaward range and the supplier highly reccommended replacing the existing copper to a new fuel hose line.
now, i am a “if it a broke, dont fix it kind of a guy” and i traced out the copper line today and it did not look that bad. i traced it until it goes down behind the galley wall. Sooooooooo heres the question. Hopefully some you guys “seasoned Pearson Owners” can anyone tell me if i am looking for trouble by not changing that line. The only place that bothers me is the section behind the galley wall “no can see”.I am looking at replacing everything with the exception of the copper line that runs continuious. it looks like a real bear to replace, if need be…
I really appreciate the help,
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we replaces ours on Clairebuoyant hull # 132.
A couple reasons:
Ther is a convergence at aft outboard corner of qtr berth where both copper propane lne, wires go thru bulkhead and the leaky bolts from the lifeline base are in proximity.
We added an inspection port behind the stove which gave access to this part of the line.
There was a second solinoid valve just forward of the stove in the storage locker, meaning there was an illegal break in the propane line.
The hose, premade on various lenghts is relatively cheap.
Propane can explode and kill you. IMHO, on an old boat, replace everything propane related. You already bought the stove, the most expensive part.
Also check the lower vent line from the propane locker to the transom, esp under the shelf. Some corrode thru and vent inside boat.
Quent -
Quent, as a safety measure the 424’s intentionally came with two solenoids, one on the tanks in the cockpit locker switched on the panel, and the other by the stove and switched on the forward facing wall to the left of the stove and forward in the cabin. Sounds like if yours had the second switch removed someone made it less safe. As long as the proper materials are used, in NY at least that’s not an Illegal break (former plumber’s assistant).
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Good point about checking the propane locker’s overboard drain hose or tube. When I bought my boat, the vent line was completely clogged with 30 years-worth of dirt that had found its way into that locker and gradually compacted in the line. I simply blew it clear with a couple of blasts from a garden hose from the outside.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original Message
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Now I know what that switch on the outer wall of the galley was for. My stove has only one solenoid in the locker and two LPG sensors in the bilge (which won't allow the solenoid to open if any one of them sense LPG). I'm sure the hose has been replaced from the locker on as it is all rubber with no copper.
Apparently, in Pelican, the PO or PO's PO did a lot of work including engine replacement, thru-hull replacements, and new LPG stuff. I wonder if it originally came with an alcohol stove because the LPG locker in the aft lazarette looks home-made and has horizontal 6lb tanks.
Anyone have any insight into that?
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:47 AM, quent < ([email][/email])> wrote:
we replaces ours on Clairebuoyant hull # 132.
A couple reasons:
Ther is a convergence at aft outboard corner of qtr berth where both copper propane lne, wires go thru bulkhead and the leaky bolts from the lifeline base are in proximity.
We added an inspection port behind the stove which gave access to this part of the line.
There was a second solinoid valve just forward of the stove in the storage locker, meaning there was an illegal break in the propane line.
The hose, premade on various lenghts is relatively cheap.
Propane can explode and kill you. IMHO, on an old boat, replace everything propane related. You already bought the stove, the most expensive part.
Also check the lower vent line from the propane locker to the transom, esp under the shelf. Some corrode thru and vent inside boat.
Quent—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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I no longer have my abstract from the ABYC on propane installation, but I do remember it stated that there should be no break in the propane line within the boat except at the stove connection, which should be fitted with a valve. Thatcher is correct it is not “illegal”, but it is non-conforming. I think there were a number of changes to ABYC specification in the late 80's or early 90's when the propane industry was lobbying to kill CNG. They pretty much succeeded by requiring CNG tanks to be lockered the same as propane (I was installing a CNG cooker at the time). The no-break rule might have come in at that time.
In any case, I still have the copper tubing and the 2nd solenoid.
John
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Good point about checking the propane locker's overboard drain hose or tube. When I bought my boat, the vent line was completely clogged with 30 years-worth of dirt that had found its way into that locker and gradually compacted in the line. I simply blew it clear with a couple of blasts from a garden hose from the outside.Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original Message
<.. snip>Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Bob,
From my (very fragile) owner's manual it appears Alcohol was the standard for at least the early 424s. When Jack & Patricia Tyler purchased Whoosh it was Alcohol and they converted it. However, since many of the 424's have a similar locker with 6# tanks (and that 2nd solenoid) my guess is it was a standard option.John
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Now I know what that switch on the outer wall of the galley was for. My stove has only one solenoid in the locker and two LPG sensors in the bilge (which won't allow the solenoid to open if any one of them sense LPG). I'm sure the hose has been replaced from the locker on as it is all rubber with no copper.
Apparently, in Pelican, the PO or PO's PO did a lot of work including engine replacement, thru-hull replacements, and new LPG stuff. I wonder if it originally came with an alcohol stove because the LPG locker in the aft lazarette looks home-made and has horizontal 6lb tanks.
Anyone have any insight into that?
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:47 AM, quent < ([email][/email])> wrote:
we replaces ours on Clairebuoyant hull # 132.
A couple reasons:
Ther is a convergence at aft outboard corner of qtr berth where both copper propane lne, wires go thru bulkhead and the leaky bolts from the lifeline base are in proximity.
We added an inspection port behind the stove which gave access to this part of the line.
There was a second solinoid valve just forward of the stove in the storage locker, meaning there was an illegal break in the propane line.
The hose, premade on various lenghts is relatively cheap.
Propane can explode and kill you. IMHO, on an old boat, replace everything propane related. You already bought the stove, the most expensive part.
Also check the lower vent line from the propane locker to the transom, esp under the shelf. Some corrode thru and vent inside boat.
Quent—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Thanks, John, that makes a lot of sense – the PO must have replaced all the copper with hose because that's all there is. Also, the second solenoid is gone. There really isn't much point to it I think.
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 8:43 AM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Bob,
From my (very fragile) owner's manual it appears Alcohol was the standard for at least the early 424s. When Jack & Patricia Tyler purchased Whoosh it was Alcohol and they converted it. However, since many of the 424's have a similar locker with 6# tanks (and that 2nd solenoid) my guess is it was a standard option.John
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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I think the original idea was, if there was a gas issue at the stove or in the stove you could close that solenoid immediately. Given why I replaced MY stove last year, I can see the usefulness of the second solenoid. Shut off without having to go back to the panel. My installation looks original but I am not sure. I don’t know what the ABYC says but in gas and plumbing world not an issue if proper materials used.
And you could test the line using an air pressure system without having to upload floor and remove panels. Of course in my biz aviation we never borescope an engine because if it isn’t known to be bad, we leave it on the wing…..
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That seems very reasonable. Makes sense.
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Thatcher Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I think the original idea was, if there was a gas issue at the stove or in the stove you could close that solenoid immediately. Given why I replaced MY stove last year, I can see the usefulness of the second solenoid. Shut off without having to go back to the panel. My installation looks original but I am not sure. I don’t know what the ABYC says but in gas and plumbing world not an issue if proper materials used.And you could test the line using an air pressure system without having to upload floor and remove panels. Of course in my biz aviation we never borescope an engine because if it isn’t known to be bad, we leave it on the wing…..
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Here are some of the ABYC standards on LPG Systems.
LPG Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping or hose from inside the LPG locker to the appliance. (ABYC A-1.9.5.6)
Each appliance shall be served by a separate low pressure supply line which shall originate inside the cylinder locker. (ABYC A-1.7.2)
The LPG hose must have permanently attached end fittings, such as swage, sleeved and threaded inserts as recommended by (ABYC A-1.9.3). (No Hose Clamps)
A manual or electrically operated (solenoid) shut-off valve control must be operable from the vicinity of the appliance without reaching over the top of any open flame. (ABYC A-1.7.3.1 & A-7.3.1.1)
The LPG tank must have the recommended OPD valve.
Each LPG system shall be fitted with a pressure gauge. The gauge shall read the cylinder pressure side of the pressure regulator. ABYC recommendation (A-1.5.2)
The LPG locker recommendation of (ABYC A-1.8) The locker must be: located above the water line, vapor tight to hull interior, vented at the bottom by a dedicated vent line not less than ½” without pockets, constructed or lined with corrosion resistant materials, shall only open from the top, and not used for storage of any other equipment.
LPG cylinders with greater than eight ounces capacity shall not be stored inside the boat and shall be stored only on the exterior where escaping vapors can only flow overboard. (ABYC A-30.5.5.2)
Testing LPG system for leaks: With the appliance valves off, open the cylinder supply valve. Close the cylinder supply valve. Observe the pressure gauge reading. The pressure indicated should remain constant for not less than three minutes. If any leakage is indicated by a drop in pressure, check the entire system with a leak detection fluid or detergent solution to locate the leak. Test solutions shall be non-corrosive and non-toxic. Repairs shall be made before operating the system. (ABYC A-1.10.3.1)
NEVER USE FLAME TO CHECK FOR LEAKS!
NEVER USE SOLUTIONS CONTAINING AMMONIA. AMMONIA, WHICH IS PRESENT IN SOAPS AND DETERGENT ATTACKS BRASS FITTINGS. UNDETECTABLE AT FIRST, IN A MATTER OF MONTHS THESE FITTINGS MAY DEVELOP CRACKS AND LEAKS.
I hope this helps.
Don
S/V Syringa #124 -
So there it is:
One unbroken line from locker to each appliance. One solinoid valve in the locker.
If you want two cutoff switches, fine. We have two, one on panel, the other by the stove. Wire them in series so both have to be on.
John-
Blowing like stink in White Sound, GTC. How you doing in MH?
Quent -
Aloha to All
in reading the posts, i am assuming that Island Muse is the original layout??? stove w/elect. shut off switch & soleniod near the stove – copper continuious to the locker w/over board vent to transom- second soleniod to the regulator, regulator to tee, tee to pressure gauge then tanks (2).
I really appreciate the tips, saves me a lot of head scratching. I like the idea of placing an access port behind the stove so i can get at the line, I will inspect the vent lines and most likely replace them.
it sounds like if i go to a new supply line i should only add one switch w/ soleniod (at the galley) and keep the run continuious to the regulator?
currenly, i am a bit concerned with is the solenoid & gauges in the locker -they are working but look a little funky. the balance of the line looks to be in pretty good shape, the inside stuff looks great.
Don thanks for the ABCY standards. can you tell me if there are any requirements to lenght of run. I was going to have Fisheries in Seattle make up the line and they need a lenght. mine goes form the Lpg locker (port corner aft) across the transom (inside the locker to starboard) along starboard rail line thru the equipent locker behind the nav station. cross to the cupboard behind the galley down in the galley wall and out. i was thinking of adding a extra loop or so to make sure i do not end up with arun short???
or should i consider a threaded connection (not sweged) on the tank locker side and cut it to lenght after i make the run?? if that is possible?
so far i only noticed the one vent at the locker, looks like i need to look for one more inside?
Island Muse, P 424 #217
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Quent,
Blowing 20-25 out of SW here, with a few gusts higher. Its a little bumpy and will get bumpier later when the winds go W-NW. MH is pretty open to the WNW (all the way to the Whale). According to the latest GRIB winds should be down to less than 20 by dawn. Guess I won't get much sleep with the rockin'. Fortunately I hit the Buck-A-Book in MH on Monday, so I have plenty to read. Also with the genset working again I can watch DVDs on the TV rather than the computer.John
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:54 PM, james bartch < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Aloha to All
in reading the posts, i am assuming that Island Muse is the original layout??? stove w/elect. shut off switch & soleniod near the stove – copper continuious to the locker w/over board vent to transom- second soleniod to the regulator, regulator to tee, tee to pressure gauge then tanks (2).
I really appreciate the tips, saves me a lot of head scratching. I like the idea of placing an access port behind the stove so i can get at the line, I will inspect the vent lines and most likely replace them.
it sounds like if i go to a new supply line i should only add one switch w/ soleniod (at the galley) and keep the run continuious to the regulator?
currenly, i am a bit concerned with is the solenoid & gauges in the locker -they are working but look a little funky. the balance of the line looks to be in pretty good shape, the inside stuff looks great.
Don thanks for the ABCY standards. can you tell me if there are any requirements to lenght of run. I was going to have Fisheries in Seattle make up the line and they need a lenght. mine goes form the Lpg locker (port corner aft) across the transom (inside the locker to starboard) along starboard rail line thru the equipent locker behind the nav station. cross to the cupboard behind the galley down in the galley wall and out. i was thinking of adding a extra loop or so to make sure i do not end up with arun short???
or should i consider a threaded connection (not sweged) on the tank locker side and cut it to lenght after i make the run?? if that is possible?
so far i only noticed the one vent at the locker, looks like i need to look for one more inside?
Island Muse, P 424 #217
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Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.comPost generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Copper protects itself with that green patina. If you see that green color on the pipes, I wouldn’t worry. You should inspect your gas lines on a regular basis. I have a pressure gauge on one of my tanks. I check the system by pressurizing the lines, then shutting the valve off on the tank. If I come back in a couple of hours and see that the gauge hasn’t moved, its not leaking. if its not leaking don’t worry.
Rich
Original Message
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Note the fifth item.
Since the intro of the solenoid in the locker opens the line and all have appropriate fittings, including the switch at the stove required I think the original Pearson installation is in compliance.
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Island Muse
I hate to say this but the 2008 West Marine Catalog has some good and safe Propane Installation info on page #970. They follow the ABYC standards.
I have two LPG shutoff valves on Syringa: one in the LPG locker; the other one is behind the galley stove. I should remove the one inside the boat to comply with ABYC (I just have not had the time yet)
it sounds like if i go to a new supply line i should only add one switch w/ soleniod (at the galley) and keep the run continuious to the regulator? (You are right)
(ABYC has no requirements on the length of run. You are right the extra hose can be looped.)
You can run a string from your locker to the stove the way you want the hose to run to get a rough length. You may luck out on length and get one off the shelf. You can also have the hose made up for you. “Parker Hose” has done a lot of hose jobs for me (all good).
so far i only noticed the one vent at the locker, looks like i need to look for one more inside?
(My locker has two vents- one at the top, the other one at the bottom of the locker. Both exit the port side of transom.)
Don
S/V Syringa #124
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Many Mahalo’s to all the tips on a proper stove installation. I have a new stove coming, planning on replacing everything from the stove to the locker w/ soleniod switch at the stove – new hose continuious to the tank locker – solenoid in the locker – two new tanks – one regulator – one solenoid one supply line w/ BBQ tee and one new vent line from the locker to overboard discharge. (no breaks in the line). clean and simple! hope thats it. and Oh – a big hole in the wallet.
Island Muse is coming along pretty sweet, soon to be on that cap and rub rail re finishing… and pitcure time
Tanks Pleny,
james
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Check the law in your state. Most states require the work to be done or “signed off by” a licensed plumber with a gas ticket. If not, you might void your insurance in cases where there is a gas element involved.
And yes, I’m a lawyer, so who else would think of this?
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James:
I just did this to Lady Leanne: new stove; new tanks; new solenoid at tanks with remote control; leak sensor in bilge; new gauges. I couldn’t fit a “tee”/valve for a bbq line in the propane locker, so I’m just using small cans. My gas line checked out OK and I kept the solenoid that was located in the port locker with sliding doors above the counter tops in the galley.
I believe Thatcher Stone is right. You need a pro to sign off on the job. My work was done by Dan Toye, the only ABYC certified guy in Hawai’i. He lives on the big island (808.754.2082).
Dan Kalinowski
Lady Leanne II (#135)
Honolulu
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