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Hello Group,
We are about to depart for Houston to look at a P424 and P422. We are former owners of a P365 a smaller earlier ver of the P422/424. I have read through most of the posts on this board. Is there anything in particular I should be looking for on my first visit to these models?
Sincerely, Stephen -
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Hi Stephen,
There are a million things to look for, not just for old 424s and 422s, so make sure give the boats a thorough going over. From my experience, I'd check the following:
1. Over all hull condition – by this I mean check for cracking and crazing along the cabin top to side/fore deck connections, also on the hull between the caprail and waterline. For the former, there will be some because of the technology used with gelcoat when the boats were built. On the hull, though, it means the boat was Imron-ed or Awlgripped and then was pounded fairly hard against fenders on a dock. Awlgrip doesn't flex like gelcoat and will crack and pull the gelcoat away leaving really hard to repair cracks. Think repainting the topsides.
2. Check the mainmast step. Is it corroded? How about the foot? If it's not coated you'll see the corrosion. It's a pain in the butt to replace.
3. If there is access to the deep part of the bilge, check it out. It shouldn't be disgusting. A little dirty is ok, but not lots of oil/grease.
4. If the same owner has had the boat for a while, the hoses on the head and engine will have probably been replaced. Check them. They are all a pain to work with.
5. Make sure all the through-hull valves work. The big ones are located in awful places. Take the time to see they work.
6. Check the rigging carefully. You can't do a 100% job without non-destructive dye testing but if it's heavily corroded or the turnbuckles are bent or there are meat hooks on the rigging wire, that's bad. It means there are worse things lurking.
7. Are there dents in either mast? You'd be surprised what can happen to masts in a yard.
8. Particular to the 424 – check the tabbing in the v-berth under the boards. Many owners have reported that breaking away in heavy seas. It should have been repaired or should still be sound.
9. Remove the engine cover. Check the top of the fuel tank. Is there rust? Is there diesel fuel underneath? If the tank is original, it may mean a big messy job to replace it.
10. Finally, how does the boat smell? All boats have a smell – a mixture of fuel and oil, people, mold and mildew, and any number of other things. It should not smell strongly of any of them, especially mold and mildew. Check carefully around the portlights for evidence of leakage. Check in the cabinets behind the settees for mold and mildew. Look as far as you can under the floorboards for same. You can clean a bilge of it's smells, but mold is extraordinarily hard to get rid of. It hasn't lasted 3 billion years because it's easy to kill.
None of this stuff is fatal to a boat purchase. The 42x series of boats sport a very strong hull and rig. You can repair or replace almost anything else in it. The question will be do you want to financially or physically? Don't be dazzled by loads of equipment, either, unless you're sure that it works and it's something you'll use. For instance, if you're going to do US coastal cruising, you don't really need a watermaker. Even not using one is expensive in maintenance.
One of the best things you can do while looking at these boats is to bring a current owner along or a friend that doesn't like boats all that much. They will be your 'grounding' device.
I've looked at 424's from seriously disgusting to sublime and they all have similar asking prices. If you're handy, they're a great boat to work on. They are simply made and strong. I never took more than about 1/2 hour to judge the condition of the boat.
I fell in love with Pelican literally minutes. Even though the cabin was torn apart, the owner's care for the boat was obvious. She had no real equipment (broken knotmeter, depth, and speed), no radio/cd player, and an amazingly ancient VHF radio. But she had not been horribly customized either, so she was a tabula rasa – a blank slate to make the way I want.
Everyone has their own opinions. Make sure the previous owner's opinions are ones you can live with, because they are often too hard to change.
It goes without saying, check the sails and other stuff you would normally check for a boat purchase. But that will all fall under extended inspection of the boat. You can eliminate many boats before that.
Good luck with your search! I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we'll welcome you with open arms to the group!
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
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Bob, nailed a lot of the stuff I was going to mention. I was just down on the boat working on some of them.
When you go to Houston bring the following:
- Digital camera, plan to take a TON of photos. Take a photo of EVERYTHING. You will never remember all of the details of things as well as the camera.
- Flashlight
- Inspection Mirror (mirror on a stick) you can get these at the hardware store. You’re going to need it to check that fuel tank.
- flat head and phillips screwdriver
To Bob’s list I’ll add:
- check the wiring in the starboard aft closet, it will look like mess if its done well. It will look like a 1 year olds finger painting if its done poorly.
- Look at the back of the breaker panel (you’ll need the screw driver for this)
- Try all the breakers
- Try any gauges that don’t require the engine to run (they probably won’t let you do that on the initial visit). I found out my battery gauge was bad by doing this
- Turn all the winches all the way through and check the pawls. (click once fwd, and make sure it won’t go backwards). I had them service two winches because of stuck pawls.
- When you’re down in the bilge look up at the sub flooring. Is everything dangling down there or well secured?
- The floor has been known to sag on P424s around the area of the mast in the salon. You can sometimes see sepearaton at the settees as well. Easy enough to fix by jacking and blocking, but it might be a bargaining chip.
- Test all the portholes. If they seem shot, they are.
- If you’re planning on going offshore and the standing rigging is original its almost definitely time to be replaced. Maybe its still fine, but assume its not and factor that into your thinking now and you’ll be happy if you don’t have to do it. If the rigging has been redone in the past 5 years, then you’re probably golden, longer and if its been sitting in the Gulf (Lots of UV) then maybe not.
My general philosophy was to decide that I love this boat even with all the things I’m going to need to fix and knowing I’m probably only catching about half of the things that need to fixed. If you can say that then go for it.
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com<.. snip>
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Owners no more...
Thanks Dawn and Patrick! -
chainplates, chainplates, chainplates……. look for evidence of leaks or discoloration on wood, fabrics, shelves, underside of decks. A good surveyer will pick up on this. But might be helpfull on the inititial visit.
good luck
alan— On Mon, 3/9/09, Patrick Walters <> wrote:
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I was doing my best to sit this one out, but will add these notes:
Try Googling something like “boat buyer’s checklist” for even more ideas of things to do and examine on your initial inspection and beyond.
If you then decide to buy the boat and settle on a price with the seller, then comes the real investigation. I have been a yacht broker/dealer on & off for many years and I’ve seen literally dozens of professional, accredited marine surveyors do their thing. In my opinion, maybe 1 in 10 is really good at it. Many are either slipshod, hurried, lazy, or all three. Even the rare good ones often miss a lot. I mean, how much can one person check in one day? Don’t misunderstand me. They’re much better than nothing, and they usually know more about their trade than the average buyer. But I wanted more.
Most yacht purchase agreements give you until a certain date to complete a survey & sea trial, professional or otherwise. They do not say the survey can only be done by one person on one day. When I had my 424 under contract I surveyed her myself using a professional checklist and my own experience. (I did hire a professional surveyor to go over the hull and deck with a moisture meter since I don’t own one myself.) Fortunately, the boat was already in dry-dock.
I managed to spend nearly all day aboard the boat, every day for a 5-day week with no owner or broker around to get in the way. I was able to do this in part by telling the listing broker, whom I knew and knew me, that I required “some extra time” to look things over before I could make a final decision to close. This gained me permission to go aboard the boat by myself. I did not mentioning how much “extra time” I intended to take. It helped that the boat was nowhere near the owner’s home or the broker’s office, so they stayed away that whole week.
By the time I was finished I’m sure I knew this boat more intimately than anyone every had in her long life, including her current owner. Every loose screw, plumbing drip, unsecured wire, stiff winch, spongy cushion, etc, etc. I then wrote up a multi-page list of what I felt the boat needed to become what I wanted and presented that to the owner through his broker. Much of the list reflected the PO’s general neglect and laziness where boat chores were concerned, and he knew it. Suffice it to say it was ample leverage to renegotiate the purchase price down another 12% from the original accepted offer. More importantly, I knew (almost) exactly what I was getting into when I ultimately did buy the boat.
I say “(almost)” because, while I didn’t miss anything of consequence in my survey, I did kind of forget the old boat yard maxim, “double the cost and triple the time.” Now, a little over 2 years later, I’m finally about to set sail to go cruising.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original Message
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I hope you get to go cruising soon!
I am cruising, currently writing this from Bequia in the Grenadines…..been fixing things as I go along..new engine and new bimini/dodger most recently…new A/C, new windlass, new foresail just a 2 years ago..and on and on…$60,000 spent in 3 years..gets you an almost new 30 year old Pearson 424. But I’ve been cruising the whole time, now ready to go back to land…maybe next summer?
So it will be for sale soon….to one lucky buyer!!
Joe,
Half Moon. #74— On Mon, 3/9/09, Silver Heels <> wrote:
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Thanks for your advice, Joe. I’ve already spent 8 years living and sailing in the Lesser Antilles, and many more in other places. I guess that’s why I’ve felt so comfortable sitting still for a change to do this refit. Turned out it was the right choice for me. Now I’m about ready to go, with a fully refit (which is not to say “finished”) boat, so I’ll get to play a lot more in the islands and work on the boat less than would’ve otherwise been the case. No right or wrong here, just different strokes.
Best of luck selling Half Moon.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor, this is so true. Great advice. I could buy a new Oyster with all the money I have spent fixing things a “qualified surveyor” missed. Well, maybe not an Oyster but it sure seems like they have missed a lot over the years. Great advice, well done.
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Thatcher,
I thank Neptune that I’ve found such great pleasure and gratification in the refitting of this good old boat these past 2 years, and in an especially helpful, affordable and amiable location. (This owner’s group has been a great help, too!) If that had not been the case, I believe I would feel foolish for having invested so much time and money. As you say, we could’ve bought a newer, ready-to-go vessel and been dollars and years ahead. As it is, though, I’m very pleased with what I’ve done and what I’ve got. Lucky me!
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I agree Tor. All I meant to convey was the general lack of discipline I have seen in many so called “Qualified Surveyors”. I have discovered, eyeballed, judged and repaired more issues on my boat than any Surveyor ever identified.
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Wow, these are great replies. The facts here should be posted under info for new buyers.
I agree about some surveyor’s. Many surveyors, like home inspector walk around with a list and pencil, checking off items they may or may not have looked at. I always ask for samples of survey’s they have completed on similar vessels, so I know what I am getting.
The best surveyor I ever worked with was Peter Kronick out of Sheboygan Wis. He was a retired US Navy Capt with degrees as a surveyor and naval architecture. He once talked me out of purchasing a boat. He was livid that the broker had knowing made false representation of the condition of the boat that was not apparent on a visual inspection. I remember him putting his marlin spike through a 1’x1′ beam up to his elbow. After that he grabbed me and RAN off the boat. He said the paint was probably holding the boat together.
I eventually purchased a P365. His survey included a complete to do list of items he suggested I improve after purchase, even though those items were acceptable per the purchase and sales agreement.
I feel I am prepared for my visit. Thank you to all.
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You’re right, Thatcher, although in all fairness those guys only have maybe 6 hours to identify a boat’s “issues.” I had 5 entire days for my own survey and you may have had years of ownership to discover everything you now know. A really good surveyor is more often than not well worth his price. The trick is finding out in advance who the really good one is in a given locale.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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The best way I know to find the best surveyor in a given locale is to personally ask AT LEAST 6 different local yacht brokers – NOT including your own or the seller’s broker! – who they would hire to survey a boat that they intended to buy for themselves. Often you’ll find one name recurs in at least several of the replies. That’s the guy you want.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Original Message
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Tor, that’s the best answer. If I look at a boat, then there’s a man named Tony Edwards on Block Island who is the go to guy. He has been the Harbor Master there and runs a repair yard. Anybody who gets stuck at anchor or on a mooring goes to Tony. The man is a walking encyclopedia of boat repair. And as if he is truly blessed, which I think he is, he is the nicest human being you have ever met in your life. Whoa behold anyone who gets stuck, but if you get stuck on Block, you’re in luck. If a boat is in RI somewhere then I bet, in the off season, one could get Tony to look at it. A H Edwards on Block Island is the name of his Company.
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I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting Tony Edwards, but I’ve only been to Block Island once and that was 20 years ago. However, if we’re talking about Rhode Island surveyors, I do happen to know the best in the region as of 5 years ago. That’s when I left, but for the previous 5 years I owned a yacht brokerage & Valiant Yachts dealership in Barrington, RI (http://www.anchoryachts.com). Needless to say, I had occasion to work with many of southern New England’s marine surveyors at one time or another. Of them all, Anthony “Tony” Knowles was far and away the best. He’s the guy I’d have hired to survey my own boat, and I’ll bet you’d find that to be the case with many if not most other brokers up there. However, not all the brokers like Tony when they have a sale pending. He has quashed more than one deal that seemed like a shoe-in up ’til survey time. He is simply more thorough, more knowledgeable and more picky than other surveyors, in addition to being smart, dedicated and brutally straightforward. Wish there were more like him.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Sounds like we’re workin’ a “Tony” club.
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