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Cutter/Sloop VS Ketch
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Hello all, my wife and I are looking at several P424’s available on the market today. I’m in love with the aft cabin/aft cockpit layout. I’ve usually seen it as a ketch though. In looking over the sail and rigging plan, I it appears to me that the mizzen is a bit too short and small to be affective as anything other than a heavy wind/storm sail stabilizer. I am also planning to install a self steering vane and the boom’s extension off the stern would make this difficult. So, if we bought a ketch – we would likely convert it.
Has anyone converted their ketch to a sloop and/or cutter? I know they offered a cutter model but they are few and far between with the interior layout we prefer. That said, I’m hoping someone can answer these questions:
Does the mast need to be moved aft to properly balance the rig?
OR was extending the boom enough?
How long is the boom “normally” in the sloop rig?
If you own a sloop/cutter rig, have you found any REAL value in a backstay tensioner?
Several p424’s I’ve looked at have a 40-50hp Westerbeke in them – is that engine truly powerful enough to push the boat at hullspeed without being at OPEN throttle?Thanks for your help. MY wife and I built a Rhodes 34 and sailed the bahamas for the last year or so, but we are now looking to upgrade and have room to grow the family. This seems like the perfect boat and meets most of my offshore criteria, and meets most of her layout criteria.
Thanks!!!
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Hello Jason,
The ketch is a well balanced vessel and above about 12-15 knots the main
becomes unnecessary if you have a cutter rig (inner forestay), otherwise
you can carry the main up to 18-20 knots. The mizzen is far more than a
balancing sail allowing the boat to sail quite well under jib and jigger
(jib and mizzen).You can put a windvane on a ketch with no problems (mine had one, but I
opted for davits) in addition, you can get the offset steering gear that
Tor has on Silverheels.Converting a ketch is a terrible idea. The main mast is in a different
place, and you’re not likely to move it. Moreover, the ketch rig will pass
under a 49′ bridge where the sloop may not. A ketch is a far more
manageable rig for short handing, and if I were to recommend anything, it
would be to add a staysail.The Westerbeke 58 is perfectly adequate, although some of us have upgraded
to larger engines. I go hull speed at 2200 rpm which is about 80% of full
throttle and that’s the recommended loading for the most efficient use of
diesels.Hope this helps,
Bob
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 2:46 PM,
wrote:Cutter/Sloop VS Ketch
Author:
Hello all, my wife and I are looking at several P424’s available on the
market today. I’m in love with the aft cabin/aft cockpit layout. I’ve
usually seen it as a ketch though. In looking over the sail and rigging
plan, I it appears to me that the mizzen is a bit too short and small to be
affective as anything other than a heavy wind/storm sail stabilizer. I am
also planning to install a self steering vane and the boom’s extension off
the stern would make this difficult. So, if we bought a ketch – we would
likely convert it.Has anyone converted their ketch to a sloop and/or cutter? I know they
offered a cutter model but they are few and far between with the interior
layout we prefer. That said, I’m hoping someone can answer these questions:Does the mast need to be moved aft to properly balance the rig?
OR was extending the boom enough?
How long is the boom “normally” in the sloop rig?
If you own a sloop/cutter rig, have you found any REAL value in a backstay
tensioner?
Several p424’s I’ve looked at have a 40-50hp Westerbeke in them – is that
engine truly powerful enough to push the boat at hullspeed without being at
OPEN throttle?Thanks for your help. MY wife and I built a Rhodes 34 and sailed the
bahamas for the last year or so, but we are now looking to upgrade and have
room to grow the family. This seems like the perfect boat and meets most of
my offshore criteria, and meets most of her layout criteria.Thanks!!!
—
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https://www.pearson424.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=1&comments_parentId=226#form_______________________________________________
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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Hello Jason
we have the early sloop version and are quite happy with it. This is simply the ketch rig without the mizzen. Later sloops resembled the cutter rig with the mast about two feet further aft.
However, we have modified it a bit. We have Hood in mast furling which means no battens and no roach on the main. We added a longer boom to increase sail area, and added self tacking mechanism to the jib. Under 10 knots, she is a bit under canvased, over that she sails nicely.
I agree that removing the mizzen from an existing ketch rig is not a good idea, but there is nothing wrong with the sloop rig that can’t be fixed with a longer boom or a bigger headsail.
Not having a mizzen also makes for a nice unobstructed cockpit.
Quent
S/V Clairebuoyant #132 -
Real sailors sail ketches.
On 5/25/2014 7:03 PM, Robert Fine wrote:
Hello Jason,
The ketch is a well balanced vessel and above about 12-15 knots the main
becomes unnecessary if you have a cutter rig (inner forestay), otherwise
you can carry the main up to 18-20 knots. The mizzen is far more than a
balancing sail allowing the boat to sail quite well under jib and jigger
(jib and mizzen).You can put a windvane on a ketch with no problems (mine had one, but I
opted for davits) in addition, you can get the offset steering gear that
Tor has on Silverheels.Converting a ketch is a terrible idea. The main mast is in a different
place, and you’re not likely to move it. Moreover, the ketch rig will pass
under a 49′ bridge where the sloop may not. A ketch is a far more
manageable rig for short handing, and if I were to recommend anything, it
would be to add a staysail.The Westerbeke 58 is perfectly adequate, although some of us have upgraded
to larger engines. I go hull speed at 2200 rpm which is about 80% of full
throttle and that’s the recommended loading for the most efficient use of
diesels.Hope this helps,
Bob
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 2:46 PM,
wrote:Cutter/Sloop VS Ketch
Author:
Hello all, my wife and I are looking at several P424’s available on the
market today. I’m in love with the aft cabin/aft cockpit layout. I’ve
usually seen it as a ketch though. In looking over the sail and rigging
plan, I it appears to me that the mizzen is a bit too short and small to be
affective as anything other than a heavy wind/storm sail stabilizer. I am
also planning to install a self steering vane and the boom’s extension off
the stern would make this difficult. So, if we bought a ketch – we would
likely convert it.Has anyone converted their ketch to a sloop and/or cutter? I know they
offered a cutter model but they are few and far between with the interior
layout we prefer. That said, I’m hoping someone can answer these questions:Does the mast need to be moved aft to properly balance the rig?
OR was extending the boom enough?
How long is the boom “normally” in the sloop rig?
If you own a sloop/cutter rig, have you found any REAL value in a backstay
tensioner?
Several p424’s I’ve looked at have a 40-50hp Westerbeke in them – is that
engine truly powerful enough to push the boat at hullspeed without being at
OPEN throttle?Thanks for your help. MY wife and I built a Rhodes 34 and sailed the
bahamas for the last year or so, but we are now looking to upgrade and have
room to grow the family. This seems like the perfect boat and meets most of
my offshore criteria, and meets most of her layout criteria.Thanks!!!
—
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https://www.pearson424.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=1&comments_parentId=226#form_______________________________________________
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Jason,
Everything pertaining to boats is a trade-off,
including the rig. You may be about equally happy with
whichever P424 configuration you get. However, if you
do buy a ketch you will surely benefit by learning when
and how to use a mizzen sail. This article may be
helpful: http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm .I have a 424 ketch with davits, a windvane and a
staysail. It works. However, I swapped the original
Westerbeke for a new Yanmar right away and am very glad
I did. It can be a challenge finding parts for those
old Westerbekes, and at their age they often need
replacement parts. Besides, diesel mechanics is neither
my forte or my passion.Good luck,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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5.5 days to Bermuda from Norfolk. Ketch rig, jib and mizzen. Only used the main for a little while. Winds 25 to mid 30’s.
Very comfy ride.
Ketches rule.Alan
Sent from my iPhoneQuote:On May 25, 2014, at 8:50 PM, “Silverheels” wrote:Jason,
Everything pertaining to boats is a trade-off,
including the rig. You may be about equally happy with
whichever P424 configuration you get. However, if you
do buy a ketch you will surely benefit by learning when
and how to use a mizzen sail. This article may be
helpful: http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm .I have a 424 ketch with davits, a windvane and a
staysail. It works. However, I swapped the original
Westerbeke for a new Yanmar right away and am very glad
I did. It can be a challenge finding parts for those
old Westerbekes, and at their age they often need
replacement parts. Besides, diesel mechanics is neither
my forte or my passion.Good luck,
Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Aloha Jason: Sailed a sloop rig for 20 years before I bought our 424 ketch. I’d never go back. Easy to handle when short handed and very well balanced with jib and jigger. Sailed in 30k with 10-12′ seas inter island and she handled it beautifully! I felt like that guy on the sub’s conning tower in Das Boot.
Dan Kalinowski
Jolly Lama #135
Keehi Lagoon, O’ahu -
I have a sloop. The sloop is identical to the tall ketch except she lacks the mizzen. The mast is in the same position and I have the hull attachments for the ketch stays. It would be a simple matter to add the mizzen if I chose to do so.
The sloop balances very well and sails nicely. The backstay adjuster allows me to tighten the forestay and pull the belly out of the headsail. She tacks within 90degrees over the bottom. It also lets me put in a binimi that covers the whole cockpit. Access forward around the dodger is not hindered by the extra stays. The sloop looks a bit odd without the mizzen however. I don’t think anyone would argue that the ketch looks better. I’ve never sailed the ketch configuration but I asked my rigger about converting several years ago. He told me that the mizzen rig is too small in the 424 to be effective. I wouldn’t want to give up the backstay tensioner anyway so it’s not really under serious consideration.
The 424 was also offered in a cutter configuration. Here the mainmast was set back a few feet. The boom extends a bit over the cockpit.
Even if you buy a sloop or cutter, the transom built by Pearson is not strong enough for the rig. Reinforcing the transom is not difficult or expensive. See richardcarter.net and navigate to boat projects to see what I did.
Good luck with your purchase and please keep us informed.
Regards
Rich
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As we old-timers on this forum know, Rich is one of the
more knowledgeable members here. However, with all due
respect I take issue with some of his assertions below:“(My sloop rig) tacks within 90degrees over the
bottom.”– It seems the ketch rig generally does not point as
high as her single-masted sisters because it’s
difficult to get enough tension on the head stay. I’m
considering installing a simple, multi-purchase
block-&-tackle to pull my double main backstays closer
together when sailing to windward, thus tightening the
head stay and (hopefully) enabling my ketch to point
higher.“(The sloop rig) also lets me put in a bimini that
covers the whole cockpit.”– I designed and built a Sunbrella bimini top that
covers the whole cockpit AND allows instant access to
the mizzen sail & boom (and clearance for the mizzen
running backstays). All it takes is four zippered
panels and a novel frame modification aft, and yet to
my knowledge my simple and (in retrospect) obvious
solution to the problem is a first-ever. Certainly it
would enhance any aft cockpit ketch, many yawls, and
some cutters. I’m thinking of re-building my bimini now
as a hard-top, since I never take it down except to
have it re-stitched periodically.“Access forward around the dodger is not hindered by
the extra stays.”– The P424’s mizzen rigging does not hinder access
around the dodger at all. If anything it provides safer
handholds. What does interfere with that passage is
Pearson’s original location of the primary sheet
winches in the worst possible place, right where you
need to step when passing between the cockpit and the
side deck. One of the first things I did when I started
refitting Silverheels was to move those winches aft,
placing them outboard of the wheel so a helmsman can
tack the boat (with or) without the aid of another
crewmember. I swear, sometimes I wonder whether Mr.
Pearson ever actually sailed these boats.“…the mizzen rig is too small in the 424 to be
effective.”– Not true. That mizzen article I referenced yesterday
demonstrates many uses for that sail, all of which work
very well on the 424.Personally, if I were to choose a single-masted Pearson
424 for cruising, it would be the cutter for its
versatility. For day-sailing and occasional weekend
jaunts, I’d want the sloop for its simplicity. However,
when I was shopping for my next boat and found
Silverheels, I was specifically looking for a ketch
rig, wanting a comfortable, modestly-priced live-aboard
cruising sailboat that I could continue to single-hand
as I grow older. Overall, I’m happy with my choice.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Tor,
I think Pearson built the earlier sloops as ketches and let the owner decide if they wanted a ketch or sloop at the time of the sale. There is basically no difference between the boats except the extra stick. My winches are probably in the same position as yours. I can’t reach them from the wheel. I should move them. You have no issue with the sheets running clear to the jib car?Having the winches forward on the combing works when you have crew. The helmsman can stand on either side of the wheel with no interference while the crew sits forward and trims. Shorthanded however it’s awkward.
Please let us know if your backstay tensioner works.
Rich
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Also those winches are ankle wackers. And way oversized. I added new
winches near the helm and use them with turning blocks on the combing.On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:22 AM, wrote:
Quote:Tor,
I think Pearson built the earlier sloops as ketches and let the owner
decide if they wanted a ketch or sloop at the time of the sale. There is
basically no difference between the boats except the extra stick. My
winches are probably in the same position as yours. I can’t reach them
from the wheel. I should move them. You have no issue with the sheets
running clear to the jib car?Having the winches forward on the combing works when you have crew. The
helmsman can stand on either side of the wheel with no interference while
the crew sits forward and trims. Shorthanded however it’s awkward.Please let us know if your backstay tensioner works.
Rich
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Rich,
The port genoa sheet just touches the forward top edge
of the cockpit combing, a smooth surface that does not
chafe. Otherwise the sheets have a clear run from the
car to my relocated primary winches.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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Hey Jason, in case your still snooping around this forum I wanted to let you know that since our phone conversation concerning my boat that there is another 424 ketch rig here in Stuart that is not officially on the market but would be available for you to view and make an offer on if you so choose. Looking forward to meeting….let me know.
Ken
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