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That unballasted keel section aft pretty much has to be blocked when setting the boat down on the hard. Putting a block or blocks beneath the forward keel but not under the after end would leave the boat precariously balanced, or at least it would certainly look that way to any yard worker who isn’t sound asleep. That being the case, I imagine the 200-plus Pearson 424’s have, collectively over the past 30-odd years, sat their hollow keel section upon many thousands of blocks in boat yards all over the world. How many resulting failures have we heard of in that section? And how many 424’s have sunk because a grounding broke through the after section of the keel? Has anyone heard of a single one?
I haven’t drilled through down there (though I’m thinking of installing a dry-dock drain plug), but it seems likely there must be considerable ‘glass thickness in that area already. Anybody know for sure?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I love the deep bilge and wouldnt fill it in for the world! I put a brass garboard plug at the lowest spot and when on the hard in the winter leave the plug out and any rain that gets in drains out. The freshwater tanks are opened and all the water just drains out rather than have to be pumped. A pedestal sits down on the floor of the bilge and holds the bilge pump and alarm switches and all lifts out so that repairs are done comfortably sitting on a chair. Its easy to clean all the bilge with a hose and brush and the garboard plug out. If you use a shopvac at the end you are clean as a whistle.
I’ve had boats with shallow bilges. If you pop off a engine cooling hose, spill a quart of oil, take a knockdown and ship a real load of water youve got big trouble and even if all goes well you end up on your knees with a sponge.I’d really think twice before calling the readymix truck.
Jon
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Hi Tor,
If the layup for the hull is anything like earlier boats, I can tell you at the rounding of the bilge at the top of the keel it's 1-1/4″ thick. It only gets thicker as you go down. It would take an extreme pounding to break that.
I love my deep bilge, although with the holding tank in it it doesn't hold as much as it used to, but still a pretty fair amount. As far as I'm concerned, it gets flushed everytime I fill the water tanks and it remains clean. I do like the idea of the garboard drain, except the part where it's underwater all the time and a point of failure. I know, they've been around for a bazillion years, but…
When at dry dock, I use a wet vac to clean up the bilge. Give it a coat of bilge paint and call it good.
Bob
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Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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I block the boat with two blocks under the solid section of the keel and a short stack of blocks under the rudder skeg. I never block under the aft section of the keel and have never had a problem with winter layup.
One problem with the hollow keel is that if water gets in there during winter layup, it will freeze and may crack the keel. My cover isn’t quite water tight. There are provisions for masts and rigging that allow some snow or water to find its way onto the deck. A surprising amount of water can find its way into the bilge then, in spite of the cover. One source for water is the propane locker drain pipe. I’ve had it crack several times during winter layup. What happens is that a little water will collect in the pipe and freeze, clogging the pipe. Any additional water that finds its way in will back up in there and crack the pipe. I’ve had something similar happen to a deck drain hose but not since I replaced them all.
While it may sound comforting to know that you can stow a hundred gallons of water or more in the keel, it may not be of much use if you start taking on water. If you can’t pump it out at least as fast as it comes in, you’ll only delay the inevitable.
Rich
BlackSheep #47
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Hi Rich,
I’m sure you know what’s best for your boat in her circumstances. Personally, I wouldn’t put the boat’s weight on the skeg in dry-dock, but if you’ve been doing it for a long time without causing a problem back there then maybe it’s OK.
I understand that ice forming inside a hose, having nowhere else to go, may burst its way out of the confined space and so break the hose. But water sitting in the bilge has all the room in the world to expand upward so there’s no pressure build-up, no reason for it to crack the keel or anything else. Think of making ice cubes in an ice tray. Same thing. You’d have to enclose the water with a covering stronger than the surrounding keel layup before the ice would even begin to bust out through the keel. Now, perhaps if water found its way between the fiberglass of the keel and an add-on filler in the sump (like concrete or whatever people use) and froze in there, then I suppose something would have to give. So if you’re going to fill up your sump, make sure it’s 100% waterproof!
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Rich
I have to think that it would be easier to find and deal with a leak before it is submerged. I hope that my alarm and the deep sump would allow time to stop the flow. But I still am paranoid over the port cockpit drain. If that hose comes off or leaks my big butt would probably get stuck in the sail locker trying to get over the refrigerator compressor and shut off the sea cock. I must cut and access at the foot of the captain’s berth.
Linus
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Linus
I have the same problem and my butt’s not getting any smaller these days. I hadn’t thought of cutting an access hole, but that might be a good idea. The aft bulkhead is structural. I don’t want to cut any holes near the hull, but a foot or so away should be OK. I could put something like a plexyglass mirror over the hole. It would make folks think I’m kinky though 😉Rich
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Jack Tyler's solution for that was to cur a small hole through the aft bulkhead and attach wood or metal bar to the valve lever. He says he can close the valve without opening the cockpit locker.
JOhn
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 2:22 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Linus
I have the same problem and my butt's not getting any smaller these days. I hadn't thought of cutting an access hole, but that might be a good idea. The aft bulkhead is structural. I don't want to cut any holes near the hull, but a foot or so away should be OK. I could put something like a plexyglass mirror over the hole. It would make folks think I'm kinky though 😉Rich
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Rich
I was told by the yard manager to make sure that the corners of any cut out should be round. I eventually want to cut out about a 3′ wide by 1′ high opening 1′ deep to lengthen the berth. Then I can make the bottom to lift out to access the valve. I plan to add to the existing plywood on the sail locker side kinda like a header in a wall.
Linus
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Found this old thread and wanted to find out if anyone actually filled the bottomless pit with concrete or any other material for that matter. I am seriously considering this option but want to make sure I’m not missing anything before taking an irrevocable step.
First, my situation is a bit different as I am not really an owner of a 424 but instead the 422 mutation. Hope this confession doesn’t get me tossed off the forum.
In the 422 there is a fiberglass tank over the sump but the tank is not totally integral to the hull. Instead, it appears to be fabricated separately and then set into the well and glassed onto the hull, leaving a thin gap around the sides (+/- 1″) and under the tank (about 5″ high).
The area is completely inaccessible, to the point that I can’t even get a mirror to a spot to allow me to look into the space, much less reach into the space for cleaning or retrieving parts. From aft the frame supporting the V-drive blocks access, from forward there is a floor frame just in front of the water tank and just a small gap between the front edge of the water tank and the spot where the bilge drops down into the sump.
I am not so much concerned about a weak point there as just to seal off a place that collects stuff that could potentially float up and block a bilge pump in an emergency. Plus I can’t even get a pressure washer nozzle in there to clean the space and I’m trying to clear out 25 years of sludge and grease and want to keep it clean.
The only possible concern is, depending on how I do this, it may create two separate bilge areas requiring separate pumps. That I can accept but any other concerns or problems that I may create?
So, has anyone done it? What material did you end up using? Happy with the results?
Thanks
SkipPS
I taped a 5′ piece of water hose to my vacuum cleaner and manged to feed it into the pit. Came out with 2 rags, assorted pieces of wood and plastic, pieces of tie wraps, a socket, several nuts bolts and washers and a couple of unidentified parts. -
Found this old thread and wanted to find out if anyone actually filled the bottomless pit with concrete or any other material for that matter. I am seriously considering this option but want to make sure I’m not missing anything before taking an irrevocable step.
First, my situation is a bit different as I am not really an owner of a 424 but instead the 422 mutation. Hope this confession doesn’t get me tossed off the forum.
In the 422 there is a fiberglass tank over the sump but the tank is not totally integral to the hull. Instead, it appears to be fabricated separately and then set into the well and glassed onto the hull, leaving a thin gap around the sides (+/- 1″) and under the tank (about 5″ high).
The area is completely inaccessible, to the point that I can’t even get a mirror to a spot to allow me to look into the space, much less reach into the space for cleaning or retrieving parts. From aft the frame supporting the V-drive blocks access, from forward there is a floor frame just in front of the water tank and just a small gap between the front edge of the water tank and the spot where the bilge drops down into the sump.
I am not so much concerned about a weak point there as just to seal off a place that collects stuff that could potentially float up and block a bilge pump in an emergency. Plus I can’t even get a pressure washer nozzle in there to clean the space and I’m trying to clear out 25 years of sludge and grease and want to keep it clean.
The only possible concern is, depending on how I do this, it may create two separate bilge areas requiring separate pumps. That I can accept but any other concerns or problems that I may create?
So, has anyone done it? What material did you end up using? Happy with the results?
Thanks
SkipPS
I taped a 5′ piece of water hose to my vacuum cleaner and manged to feed it into the pit. Came out with 2 rags, assorted pieces of wood and plastic, pieces of tie wraps, a socket, several nuts bolts and washers and a couple of unidentified parts._______________________________________________
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We have discussed it many times.And for me after 5 years it is still a project that once a year I am ready to just fill it.I asked a sailing friend and Capt for advice.His bilge is snow white and dry.He explained how he did it.I showed him mine.Comment-that s a basement!
One big concern I have.Even if you fill it in-5 inches with something-is there a risk that thru expansion and contraction due to temp change,will it buckle?I think a spray foam and then Fiberglas over the top would work but I m not sure it will hold up.I recall one boat filled all the way with foam but I recall the next owner having big issues with it.I know Lowes sells some concrete that sets up under water.Any chemical/engineers out there that can tell me it will work and no risk.Pls
Sent from my iPadOn Jan 31, 2011, at 18:46, “skipmac” <> wrote:
Found this old thread and wanted to find out if anyone actually filled the bottomless pit with concrete or any other material for that matter. I am seriously considering this option but want to make sure I’m not missing anything before taking an irrevocable step.
First, my situation is a bit different as I am not really an owner of a 424 but instead the 422 mutation. Hope this confession doesn’t get me tossed off the forum.
In the 422 there is a fiberglass tank over the sump but the tank is not totally integral to the hull. Instead, it appears to be fabricated separately and then set into the well and glassed onto the hull, leaving a thin gap around the sides (+/- 1″) and under the tank (about 5″ high).
The area is completely inaccessible, to the point that I can’t even get a mirror to a spot to allow me to look into the space, much less reach into the space for cleaning or retrieving parts. From aft the frame supporting the V-drive blocks access, from forward there is a floor frame just in front of the water tank and just a small gap between the front edge of the water tank and the spot where the bilge drops down into the sump.
I am not so much concerned about a weak point there as just to seal off a place that collects stuff that could potentially float up and block a bilge pump in an emergency. Plus I can’t even get a pressure washer nozzle in there to clean the space and I’m trying to clear out 25 years of sludge and grease and want to keep it clean.
The only possible concern is, depending on how I do this, it may create two separate bilge areas requiring separate pumps. That I can accept but any other concerns or problems that I may create?
So, has anyone done it? What material did you end up using? Happy with the results?
Thanks
SkipPS
I taped a 5′ piece of water hose to my vacuum cleaner and manged to feed it into the pit. Came out with 2 rags, assorted pieces of wood and plastic, pieces of tie wraps, a socket, several nuts bolts and washers and a couple of unidentified parts._______________________________________________
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Joe Shimkonis
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If you decide to fill the pit with cement, I recommend that you use a special
cement that does not react to sea water. I also suggest that you clean the
interior well before adding the cement and that you use a light weight cement
(an oxymoron to be sure) light weight cement contains no sand or gravel, rather
it is made with vermiculite or a similar light weight filler and air. A
competent cement contractor should show you the compression factors for various
mixtures. Once the cement is cured, be sure you add one or two layers of FRP and
then seal the edges very well with 5200 or similar. You do not want water to
seep down between the hull and the cement.________________________________
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You can get the hydrophilic cement that ferro-cement boats are made of – it
gets harder with age in salt water, and as you know boats are made from it.
Should do the trick even without the FRP layers.On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 PM, Lee Yonkers <> wrote:
Quote:If you decide to fill the pit with cement, I recommend that you use a
special
cement that does not react to sea water. I also suggest that you clean the
interior well before adding the cement and that you use a light weight
cement
(an oxymoron to be sure) light weight cement contains no sand or gravel,
rather
it is made with vermiculite or a similar light weight filler and air. A
competent cement contractor should show you the compression factors for
various
mixtures. Once the cement is cured, be sure you add one or two layers of
FRP and
then seal the edges very well with 5200 or similar. You do not want water
to
seep down between the hull and the cement.________________________________
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I love the pit. Iwould not fill it. I was able to actually stand in it with my
feet on the keel. I drilled through from outside and installed a garboard plug
for draining the bilge when on the hard.
There is a vertical 1 1/2 inch plastic pipe mounted on a stand and sitting
vertically in the deepest sump. About 3 feet high) It supports a bilge pump,
float switches for the bilge pump and another for the bilge full alarm. The
whole apparatus lifts out so you can attend all the wires etc on your lap.
I bet your PO glassed in that tank and deprived you of access. I wonder if you
could cut that loose and start over in the design of your holding tanks etc.
Jon , 424 hull99________________________________
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I’m with you on this one, Jon. I’ve stood in that deep sump many hours
during my refit, installing everything from a garboard plug to a bilge
alarm to a seawater manifold, not to mention accessing all kinds of
wiring and plumbing that could never be reached from any other place.
But the primary benefit of such a deep sump is that it will contain a
sudden influx of seawater while the crew deals with the problem. It was
one of the (many) reasons I bought this boat.Tor
Silverheels, P-424 #17
http://www.silverheels.us
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I’ll have to agree with the previous response (Titus). I would not fill in the hole. I like having a massive collection point for water. All boats, new or old, have leaks. I have been in some heavy seas on the nose sailing close hauled and taking a lot of spray over the bow for a 2 or 3 day period. Some of that spray did find its way to the bilge. I feel if I had a smaller bilge I could of had water sloshing around on the cabin sole if the bilge pump failed. Of course the way to prevent that is to stay on top of the condition of the bilge pump. I do check the bilge often at sea and I feel a large bilge is a good back up to an unknown weak bilge pump.
Good luck.
Ted Riley
Elaine Patton
Bel Esprit II
Hull 175— On Tue, 2/1/11, Jonathan Titus <> wrote:
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++ on keeping the bilge deep. for the same reasons. When offshore for many days and blue water over the bow, water finds a way to get in and hopefully collects in the DEEP bilge. Also, I love standing down there and gazing up at the bottom of the galley….people on my dock are usually awe that I can get down in my bilge…. well I used to before I gained all this weight (mostly from drinking too much rum).
Alan
UNABATED
#140— On Tue, 2/1/11, Elaine Patton <> wrote:
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Skip: My first thought was to not do anything as drastic as filling the bilge with an irreversable procedure, but after you explained your situation, it does present a little different rationale. Is the fiberglass tank over the bilge something like a holding tank that has been added? I would have to think about maybe removing it and going back to the original layout if that is the case. In any case, like you, I would not want to have a bilge that I couldn’t get to. There are too many things that go bump in the night to have a bilge you cant see. How do you clean/repair/replace the bilge pump?
Charlie -
Skip: My first thought was to not do anything as drastic as filling the bilge with an irreversable procedure, but after you explained your situation, it does present a little different rationale. Is the fiberglass tank over the bilge something like a holding tank that has been added? I would have to think about maybe removing it and going back to the original layout if that is the case. In any case, like you, I would not want to have a bilge that I couldn’t get to. There are too many things that go bump in the night to have a bilge you cant see. How do you clean/repair/replace the bilge pump?
Charlie
"People cannot discover new lands until they have the courage to lose sight of the shore."
Andre Gide 1869-1951_______________________________________________
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Hi Charlie,
The tank is not an add on or replacement but original installation in the 422 or at least in hull #19, 1984 model. What is odd to me is the tank is not an area of bilge area that is walled in to make a tank but a separate fabrication that fits the profile of the well and glassed into place, leaving a gap around most of the tank, about 2-3″ in the front and back, about 5″ under the tank and about 1″ on the sides following the curve of the hull.
Since the tank is under the floor and between frames it is hard to see exactly it is attaced but seems to be mainly between the top sides of the tank and the hull. It could be supported in spots on the bottom or lower on the sides but can’t see to tell.
To remove the tank you would have to cut the floors out forward of the engine, between the galley and nav station.
So all that is my concern. The space under that tank is as inaccessible as a different dimension and it is as attractive to matter as a black hole. So no way to easily clean the space or retrieve anything that falls in. So I want to completely clean it once and for all and then seal it up so future bilge cleaning will be much less of an ordeal. The added benefit, when I drop the irreplaceable, left handed, fine thread, metric, gold plated lock nut that connects the framus to the widget I might be able to retrieve it.
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Hi Charlie,
The tank is not an add on or replacement but original installation in the 422 or at least in hull #19, 1984 model. What is odd to me is the tank is not an area of bilge area that is walled in to make a tank but a separate fabrication that fits the profile of the well and glassed into place, leaving a gap around most of the tank, about 2-3″ in the front and back, about 5″ under the tank and about 1″ on the sides following the curve of the hull.
Since the tank is under the floor and between frames it is hard to see exactly it is attaced but seems to be mainly between the top sides of the tank and the hull. It could be supported in spots on the bottom or lower on the sides but can’t see to tell.
To remove the tank you would have to cut the floors out forward of the engine, between the galley and nav station.
So all that is my concern. The space under that tank is as inaccessible as a different dimension and it is as attractive to matter as a black hole. So no way to easily clean the space or retrieve anything that falls in. So I want to completely clean it once and for all and then seal it up so future bilge cleaning will be much less of an ordeal. The added benefit, when I drop the irreplaceable, left handed, fine thread, metric, gold plated lock nut that connects the framus to the widget I might be able to retrieve it.
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Really been thinking about what, if anything, to do about the pit. I hate the fact that I can’t get in there to clean it and anything that drops within about 5-6′ of the bilge will inevitably go straight into the most inaccessible corner of the pit. BUT, if it is filled and you don’t get a good, permanent seal all around the fill then you have potentially created a worse problem with no way to get the fill out without cutting the floor apart.
In my case that concern is possibly greater than most because the previous owner managed to spill his oil change bucket into the bilge and I have spent the last few months cleaning the bilge. Without access to completely clean the glass in the pit I think it unlikely that anything will adhere, even 5200.
So, unless someone can recommend a fill material that is impervious to water and will also bond to oil covered fiberglass I think I will have to live with the pit appreciate its function as a sump and be sure to never again drop any nuts, bolts or small parts anywhere on the boat.
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If you still have physical access to the sump through the floorboards (I
don’t remember what you have down there), you can clean the oil out with a
strong detergent and then clean the fiberglass with acetone or MEK. If it’s
been painted, use a sander to rough up the surface. Instead of concrete,
use the epoxy self-leveling floor patch stuff.No matter how clean the fiberglass, concrete won’t stick to it. What you
can do is put hydrophilic concrete (sets underwater, and gets harder with
exposure to water like used for ferro-concrete hulls), let it set up well,
and then fiberglass it in very thoroughly. That’s basically how your keel
is made. Even if your new skin leaks, it won’t matter. But it’s easy enough
to make sure it doesn’t.Failing all that, build a removable shelf under the floorboards that fits
tightly enough that most stuff won’t fall into the bilge. That’s a little
more difficult, but frankly, having a big sump that gives you some time in
the event of a leak is a pretty attractive feature of the boat.Bob
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:16 AM, skipmac <> wrote:
Really been thinking about what, if anything, to do about the pit. I hate
the fact that I can’t get in there to clean it and anything that drops
within about 5-6′ of the bilge will inevitably go straight into the most
inaccessible corner of the pit. BUT, if it is filled and you don’t get a
good, permanent seal all around the fill then you have potentially created a
worse problem with no way to get the fill out without cutting the floor
apart.In my case that concern is possibly greater than most because the previous
owner managed to spill his oil change bucket into the bilge and I have spent
the last few months cleaning the bilge. Without access to completely clean
the glass in the pit I think it unlikely that anything will adhere, even
5200.So, unless someone can recommend a fill material that is impervious to
water and will also bond to oil covered fiberglass I think I will have to
live with the pit appreciate its function as a sump and be sure to never
again drop any nuts, bolts or small parts anywhere on the boat._______________________________________________
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—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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If you still have physical access to the sump through the floorboards (I
don’t remember what you have down there), you can clean the oil out with a
strong detergent and then clean the fiberglass with acetone or MEK. If it’s
been painted, use a sander to rough up the surface. Instead of concrete,
use the epoxy self-leveling floor patch stuff.No matter how clean the fiberglass, concrete won’t stick to it. What you
can do is put hydrophilic concrete (sets underwater, and gets harder with
exposure to water like used for ferro-concrete hulls), let it set up well,
and then fiberglass it in very thoroughly. That’s basically how your keel
is made. Even if your new skin leaks, it won’t matter. But it’s easy enough
to make sure it doesn’t.Failing all that, build a removable shelf under the floorboards that fits
tightly enough that most stuff won’t fall into the bilge. That’s a little
more difficult, but frankly, having a big sump that gives you some time in
the event of a leak is a pretty attractive feature of the boat.Bob
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 8:16 AM, skipmac <> wrote:
Really been thinking about what, if anything, to do about the pit. I hate
the fact that I can’t get in there to clean it and anything that drops
within about 5-6′ of the bilge will inevitably go straight into the most
inaccessible corner of the pit. BUT, if it is filled and you don’t get a
good, permanent seal all around the fill then you have potentially created a
worse problem with no way to get the fill out without cutting the floor
apart.In my case that concern is possibly greater than most because the previous
owner managed to spill his oil change bucket into the bilge and I have spent
the last few months cleaning the bilge. Without access to completely clean
the glass in the pit I think it unlikely that anything will adhere, even
5200.So, unless someone can recommend a fill material that is impervious to
water and will also bond to oil covered fiberglass I think I will have to
live with the pit appreciate its function as a sump and be sure to never
again drop any nuts, bolts or small parts anywhere on the boat._______________________________________________
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—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
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The 424 is properly ballasted with what she has in her keel and needs no additional weight. I contacted a guy by phone in Arizona a few years back who makes a type of concrete that uses plastic pellets as an aggregate rather than stone. The product floats and can be used to make floating docks. He said that if the fiberglass is cleaned well and coated with lime before pouring in his product it would adhere. I assume the same would work with any concrete product. After a brief discussion, he was unwilling to make a small sale.
As far as considering a deep sump a safety factor, I’d have to disagree. If you can’t pump water out at least as fast as it comes in it doesn’t matter how deep the sump is. The sump doesn’t even hold all that much water. It does hold a bunch of stuff that can clog your pump however and there’s no way to get in there to clean it properly.
Rich
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