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Sad to see one go for such a cheap price. I wonder if there’s something wrong with it. A bad W60 engine might drive the cost down $20k. It would cost more than that to replace however. Maybe its a sign of the poor economy. I bet nothings selling.
Rich
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A quick look at the listing indicates an owner's health issue requires a quick sale. Also the boat is in Puerto Vallarta – not a great place to sell a boat.
john
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Rich Carter < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Sad to see one go for such a cheap price. I wonder if there's something wrong with it. A bad W60 engine might drive the cost down $20k. It would cost more than that to replace however. Maybe its a sign of the poor economy. I bet nothings selling.Rich
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One just sold in MD for 59,000. Ah well, I guess my boat isn't appreciating like I thought… Hahahahaha!
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:48 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:A quick look at the listing indicates an owner's health issue requires a quick sale. Also the boat is in Puerto Vallarta – not a great place to sell a boat.john
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Rich Carter < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Sad to see one go for such a cheap price. I wonder if there's something wrong with it. A bad W60 engine might drive the cost down $20k. It would cost more than that to replace however. Maybe its a sign of the poor economy. I bet nothings selling.Rich
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Rich,
Actually, some boats are selling, just as some houses are selling. Of course, the media would never mention anything like that. Fear sells.
A 424 selling so cheaply does bring down the average resale value of all 424’s, which is, indeed, sad for all of us. This one appears to be in good condition, but of course there’s no telling until she’s surveyed. Any boat that old can have… issues. Beyond that, photos and (some) yacht brokers can be deceiving.
Then again, she could be the deal of the decade. If I were in the market, I’d be on the next flight down there to find out.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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As a surveyor I watch the market very closely. I can tell you the prices of 424s, as well as all other boats, are all over the place. Two 424s sold so far this year;one for 42,500 the other one for 79,000. The 422 in Blaine with a asking price of $130,000 has a sale pending on her now. I did an insurance survey on her last year (she is exceptional) and will be very surprised if she goes for under 100K.
Don
S/V Syringa (#124) -
I bought Morning Glory (#43) for $45K in April of 2006. This was a definite distress sale. . . it was about to be repossessed and the owners were willing to accept my offer. The original asking price was $90K. I think I got a good deal.
Lee
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When I first looked at 424’s everyday 3 to 4 years ago on yachtworld,there were 17 or more for sale.Now,5 or 6 spread across the country including the one for $49000 in Mexico.There probably aren’t a lot of buyers running down to Mexico to look at it and to bring it home.That alone has probably caused a price drop-this has been for sale for maybe a year?
There seems to be more buyers than sellers.<.. snip>
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Joe Shimkonis
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Before we destroy the retail value of 424s right here in this string, perhaps it should be pointed out that the low prices on some of these aging boats are just the down payment.
We bought Clairebuoyant at auction some years ago at a price below any mentioned so far, but dispite our best efforts, she has tripled that in tribute, and there is much left to be done.
Incidently, I’ve grown to like the Canadians as a result of cruising down here to the Bahamas. If it floats, they’ll sail it here, and they don’t look down on you if your boat doesn’t look like it just arrived at the Boat Show, like the two guys docked near us who just had to wash the salt off their gelcoat with 20 cent a gallon RO water.
Quent
Clairebuoyant #132 lying Spanish Cay, Abacos, faded but proud. -
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Quent,
You’re absolutely right about most 424’s selling prices vs. what they cost their owners by the time they’re fully renovated. As we all know, many if not most of the 424’s for sale are a mess, having suffered the ravages of both age and neglect, a disastrous combination.
Even after a caring owner has renovated one of these boats, the real market resale value is to some extent limited by their selling price history. I used to own a yacht brokerage/dealership (http://www.AnchorYachts.com, east coast dealer for Valiant Yachts). One of the things I often did for my clients was provide fair market value (or fair purchase value) information for a given make/model used boat. For most of the past decade, the best source of this information has been from YachtWorld.com. They maintain a Sold Boat’s database that is available to their member brokers only. (You won’t find it on their public web site.) I still have access to the Member’s Only portions of YachtWorld through my former company’s continuing membership. This morning I pulled the data for the Pearson 424. It is attached for the group’s consideration.
There are many factors that go into the ultimate selling price of any boat. For my part, I anticipate that when I eventually sell my 424, I’ll recover most of the 6-figures I have invested in her to date, and none of the labor. That is to say, you’d better love fussing with your boat because you’re never going to get paid for your time. Happily for me, I have (mostly) enjoyed working on my boat thus far, and will enjoy cruising her all the more for having refit her with my own hands. My efforts may well be without monetary value, but the experience has, for me, been priceless.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Thanks, Tor – very interesting. Looks like my broker in MD did not post the selling data for my purchase.
I've re-attached the file as an Excel spreadsheet, which might make a little easier to browse.One of the factors that affected my purchase was location. When I purchased Sarah it was the only P424 listed in the Chesapeake area. Others were available in New England and of course Florida. I made an offer, which I believed the boat was worth (obviously didn't have this data, my broker was not as forthcoming as you), which the owner thought was an insult.. My broker encouraged me to raise the offer a little. I figured what it would cost to spend 2 or 3 nights in Florida looking at boats and added that to my offer. The owner accepted. This boat was within 40nm of my marina so it was a short day trip to take possession of the vessel. Of course that day trip was in the middle of February. A couple of my friends who helped me move the boat still complain about it.
John
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Quent,You're absolutely right about most 424's selling prices vs. what they cost their owners by the time they're fully renovated. As we all know, many if not most of the 424's for sale are a mess, having suffered the ravages of both age and neglect, a disastrous combination.
Even after a caring owner has renovated one of these boats, the real market resale value is to some extent limited by their selling price history. I used to own a yacht brokerage/dealership (http://www.AnchorYachts.com, east coast dealer for Valiant Yachts). One of the things I often did for my clients was provide fair market value (or fair purchase value) information for a given make/model used boat. For most of the past decade, the best source of this information has been from YachtWorld.com. They maintain a Sold Boat's database that is available to their member brokers only. (You won't find it on their public web site.) I still have access to the Member's Only portions of YachtWorld through my former company's continuing membership. This morning I pulled the data for the Pearson 424. It is attached for the group's consideration.
There are many factors that go into the ultimate selling price of any boat. For my part, I anticipate that when I eventually sell my 424, I'll recover most of the 6-figures I have invested in her to date, and none of the labor. That is to say, you'd better love fussing with your boat because you're never going to get paid for your time. Happily for me, I have (mostly) enjoyed working on my boat thus far, and will enjoy cruising her all the more for having refit her with my own hands. My efforts may well be without monetary value, but the experience has, for me, been priceless.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Aloha John:
How true! We looked long and hard for an appropriate boat for our “base” in Hawai’i. Although Lady Leanne needed work, it was in the right place at the right time at the right price. Rather than spend the thousands required to move a 424 to Hawai’i, it made more sense to put the money into upgrading a “bird in the hand”. Of course, the final deciding factor was that a slip came with the boat (they are extremely hard to find in this state).
Dan Kalinowski
Lady Leanne (#135)
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I looked at a 424 pilot house version in 1997 listed at around 50k. It was a mess. The yard workers laughed when asked which slip it was in. Commpare 424 pridces to Whitby 42s to keep some perspective.
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Hi Norris,
Just curious: What do you mean about comparing 424 prices to Whitby 42’s for perspective?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Tor,
I looked at a bunch of Whitbys before I bought the 424. The Whitbys typically were more expensive, but I hated the layout and the fact that I'd be on the floor unconscious most of the time going between the aft cabin and the main cabin.
It had a couple of features I really liked – like the table that folded down from the cushion side of the starboard settee and the engine access (pop a few bolts in the cockpit and raise the whole top of the engine compartment.
Other than that, I found them really cramped. I like the 424 much better. But that's just my opinion. There are a whole mess of Whitby owners that would beg to differ.
Bob
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Norris,Just curious: What do you mean about comparing 424 prices to Whitby 42's for perspective?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I logged a few thousand miles delivering a Whitby 42. A good boat with
a full engine room, but sea kindly but not as sea kindly as our 424.
Big Ford Lehman 120 hp engine. Easy to get parts for.Pete
Robert Fine wrote:
Quote:Hi Tor,I looked at a bunch of Whitbys before I bought the 424. The Whitbys
typically were more expensive, but I hated the layout and the fact
that I’d be on the floor unconscious most of the time going between
the aft cabin and the main cabin.It had a couple of features I really liked – like the table that
folded down from the cushion side of the starboard settee and the
engine access (pop a few bolts in the cockpit and raise the whole top
of the engine compartment.Other than that, I found them really cramped. I like the 424 much
better. But that’s just my opinion. There are a whole mess of Whitby
owners that would beg to differ.Bob
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Silver Heels <
Hi Norris,
Just curious: What do you mean about comparing 424 prices to
Whitby 42’s for perspective?Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us <http://www.SilverHeels.us>
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Silver Heels,
When I was looking for a boat 12 years ago and decidedto go a 40ish footer I looked at some 424s and a Whitby 42. They seemed to me to be in roughly the same class. I agree that some opinions rate the Whitby as a “better” boat, but I think that depends on what one wants or needs in a boat. One
— On Tue, 2/17/09, Silver Heels <> wrote:
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Silver Heels,
When I was looking for a boat 12 years ago and decidedto go a 40ish footer I looked at some 424s and a Whitby 42. They seemed to me to be in roughly the same class. I agree that some opinions rate the Whitby as a “better” boat, but I think that depends on what one wants or needs in a boat. One word I get from a broker I know at Larsen’s in Waukegan, IL is that sailboats in the price range of 424s sell quickly to people who a while ago might have sprung for a new boat, but I cautious about spending that much and still want a toy.
Norris Larson, Easy Reach, #203
— On Tue, 2/17/09, Silver Heels <> wrote:
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I agree with Bob. The main reason I went for the 424 over the Whitby was the cramped feeling. especially when I looked at a 424 after looking at a Whitby. The Whitby also has a fuller keel and more wetted surface.
Norris Larson
— On Tue, 2/17/09, Robert Fine <> wrote:
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A Pearson 424 in decent condition can be a lot of bang for the buck. I looked at a Whitby 42, also, and like Bob didn’t care for the cramped layout. It’s really too small a hull for a center cockpit arrangement, at least by modern liveaboard standards. If they had built some with an aft cockpit I might have considered them. As it turned out, I “discovered” an affordable boat with a much more accommodating layout for living aboard, and a huge cockpit ideal for down-island socializing. Since my present cruising plans are limited to the trade wind latitudes, the 424 seems like a very good choice. Pearson did a decent job building these boats, considering the time and the intended use, i.e., coastal cruising. I suspect the Whitby’s are better-constructed, but I don’t personally know them well enough to proclaim it as fact.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Without too much effort, it would be fairly easy to spend about $30K repowering a 424. If I look around my boat, I can easily add up another $30K or more in electronics and other goodies. To see one selling for the low $40’s is disturbing. While it doesn’t really matter what they sell for as long as mine isn’t for sale, I assume that some day we or our heirs will all face the prospect of selling our boats. Unless there’s something wrong with a 424, I can’t see why it would sell for less than $70K. If the boat is in good condition, $85K or more seems more appropriate. Am I way offbase here?
Rich
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You are way off the blue book values. Anyone can search them online
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Rich,
No, you’re not way off base on the resale value of these boats. In fact, if you average out the selling prices of the hundred-odd 424’s in the Sold Boats database list I sent to the group last week, I suspect it’ll be in that range. But those are not the complete refit boats. A Pearson 424 all redone – and most of us know what that entails – should fetch $100k-plus while the new equipment is still fairly new. Of course, you’ll have at least that much cash into the boat at that point. Forget about the million man-hours of hard labor.
You’re mistaken about the cost of repowering, though. I had a new Yanmar 4JH4E beautifully installed by the local dealer down here for a little under $16k (not including sales tax, which I wasn’t obligated to pay). On top of that, I sold the 30-year-old Westerbeke that came with my boat for $2,000 thru eBay. It was still running strong. I just didn’t want to begin a 10-year (give or take 10 years) cruise with such an antique, especially since it had not been maintained worth a damn. I’m just not that into engine mechanics.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Here's the problem, Rich. We tend to value our boats far more than a buyer would. That's only natural. Whatever the 424s are selling for is what buyers are willing to pay.
That said, without knowing the particular boat, it is entirely possible the 40k 424 is in terrible condition. Also, without knowing the seller's position or needs, it may just be they have to get out of it. Moreover, it might be a case of selling it before the yard takes it in a mechanic's lien and auction.
If you are investing in Blacksheep in the hopes you're raising it's value you are, as they say, shoveling excrement against the tide. Our boats will reach a level beyond which they won't depreciate anymore but it will never, ever be what we paid for them or invested in them. Boats are a really, really bad investment strategy.
I know that I bought Pelican two years ago for 75k and have since put more than 30k into here for new equipment, upgrades and maintenance. I'm sure, however, she's still worth 70-75K in a decent market. But this isn't a decent market. So, our boats, if we want to sell them, are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them and no more.
Personally, I'm hoping that when I die, they set Pelican up on autopilot under sail with an incendiary device aboard set to go off when she wanders somewhere in mid ocean. Then they place me sitting at the helm and send her on her way.
But that won't happen, I'm sure.
Bob
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Rich,No, you're not way off base on the resale value of these boats. In fact, if you average out the selling prices of the hundred-odd 424's in the Sold Boats database list I sent to the group last week, I suspect it'll be in that range. But those are not the complete refit boats. A Pearson 424 all redone – and most of us know what that entails – should fetch $100k-plus while the new equipment is still fairly new. Of course, you'll have at least that much cash into the boat at that point. Forget about the million man-hours of hard labor.
You're mistaken about the cost of repowering, though. I had a new Yanmar 4JH4E beautifully installed by the local dealer down here for a little under $16k (not including sales tax, which I wasn't obligated to pay). On top of that, I sold the 30-year-old Westerbeke that came with my boat for $2,000 thru eBay. It was still running strong. I just didn't want to begin a 10-year (give or take 10 years) cruise with such an antique, especially since it had not been maintained worth a damn. I'm just not that into engine mechanics.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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I just take an eye on Yachtworld and what i see look is interesting. The engin seam to be new, Isusu or somting like! The price can bee ok if the owners have to sell fast or like one of my friend buy at realy low price from a succeed.
Jean-Luc
Mystic Merlin
#102
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Tor
As usual you make me feel a little stupid when it come to some of the decissions that I have made. I did most of the labor and still spent close to 20k. That included a new inverter, honda generator, new fuel tank, four new batteries, rebuilding bilge pumps and of course some new tools to play with.
Linus
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Nah, it’s both.
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
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Linus, you needn’t ever feel stupid around me. If you had any idea of how many things I’ve screwed up in the course of this refit… Besides, in addition to a new engine you got all those other things I did not, PLUS the knowledge of how they went in. Also, I should have said before that my new engine price didn’t include a new transmission or V-drive, since I kept the originals. And I subsequently spent another $1,800 having the Paragon rebuilt. Ain’t no free lunches here. I just wanted to reassure Rich that repowering need not cost $30k.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Tor
I repowered three years ago. I added up what the parts alone cost me. It came to $21,175 not including labor. I did the work myself. I would estimate that labor would run another $8k..$10K at yard rates.
http://www.richardcarter.net/boat/pix/RepowerCost.xlsWhile it could be done for less, I replaced everything including tank, v-drive and running gear.
Regards
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Rich,
I see I was comparing apples to oranges. Your package included much more than mine.
Thanks,
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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