- This topic has 24 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 11 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
I am refurbishing a 1980 424 which has no auto pilot. Can I get away with the $1500 Raymarine wheel mounted smartpilot. It is recommended for max 16000 displacement boats, but since the 424 seems to have little helm, I thought I might get away with it. Or should I get a below decks model which will cost at least $3500 more? I would like to think I will do a bit of offshore (three days max) at some point, but don’t plan to cross any oceans. Which manufacturer makes the unit most compatible with the 424 which requires no quadrant work or other major modification? All replies appreciated, thanks, Jim
-
Jim.
IMO, the wheel pilot is probably adequate for ICW motor trips, but not
off-shore where the seas will over-power it. It is also likely inadequate
for sailing under autopilot in anything more than 10-12 kts of wind. The
only 424 that I know of that has made ocean passages and long cruises with a
wheel autopilot is Whoosh. However they make great use of their Sail-O-Mat
windvane and rarely motor on a passage except in dead calms. I had a
Raymarine wheel pilot that came with Sarah, which is basis of my negative
opinions.
I think most of the autopilot manufacturers use a tiller mounted on the
rudder shaft rather than attach to the quadrant. Raymarine works that way.
The only mod for my Raymarine installation was the glassing in of a mount
for the drive unit.On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 2:10 PM, jamesminge wrote:
I am refurbishing a 1980 424 which has no auto pilot. Can I get away with
the $1500 Raymarine wheel mounted smartpilot. It is recommended for max
16000 displacement boats, but since the 424 seems to have little helm, I
thought I might get away with it. Or should I get a below decks model which
will cost at least $3500 more? I would like to think I will do a bit of
offshore (three days max) at some point, but don’t plan to cross any oceans.
Which manufacturer makes the unit most compatible with the 424 which
requires no quadrant work or other major modification? All replies
appreciated, thanks, Jim_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Regards,
John Stevenson
http://www.svsarah.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Hello Jim,
Here’s a summary of my recent experience:
For 5 years we did primary coastal cruising and a few over-nights. I had an
older Cetec-Benmar below decks autopilot. This pilot worked great and was
fine for what we used it for. This past fall, I sailed the Caribbean 1500
to Tortola and thought that my autopilot was up to the job…it wasn’t and
it failed the first night off Cape Hatteres. We were forced to hand steer
the remainder of the 11 day trip.It turns out that the almost half the of the boats sailing the 1500 had an
autopilot failure. Virtually all those failures were with older pilots like
mine or with Raymarine below decks and the wheel pilots.In Tortola I upgraded my autopilot to a B&G Ram with a Simrad head. This
required some customized mounting and an quadrant arm to be mounted. I am
very satisfied with this new system and have no issues on our short
off-shore passages between islands. I would estimate a robust off-shore
autopilot would be between 6 and 9K with installation. In my opinion, 3.5k
wouldn’t by you a reliable pilot….you’d be better off buying two wheel
pilots.If you are not ever going to take the boat off-shore, then a wheel pilot
would be fine. However, if your plans include a multi-day off-shore
passage, I would strongly suggest that you bite the bullet and upgrade to a
robust below decks pilot.John
s/v Indulgence # 179
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Plus one on spending the $$ upfront for a strong – reliable – fast pilot.
I have done 4 passages of 5+ days offshore. It’s nice to know that the pilot is up to the task, especially off the wind where the boat really slews around. (where the lock to lock time needs to be fast enough to keep up)
I use a RayMarine control head (X30) with an Octopus Hydraulic Ram. The nice thing about the Hydraulic ram esp. with Octopus is that it’s repairable with common tools at sea.
The Raymarine Linear servo uses a small plastic pinion gear to drive it and you have to send it back to have it repaired.
Mount the ram on an arm connected to the rudder post.
My 2 cents
Alan
UNABATED
#140— On Wed, 3/16/11, John Sommer wrote:
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
-
-
Connection to quadrant is really not the preferred method due to it’s weak construction. Need to mount it to the rudder post via a “tiller” arm. The tiller are can easily be purchased through Edson. This will also allow you to mount the unit lower in the boat. My ram is mounted to that large piece of lumber that surrounds the post.
alan— On Wed, 3/16/11, skipmac wrote:
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Jim-
Regarding a below deck unit, Edson the steering unit manufacturer is pretty much opposed to attaching to the steering quadrant. Tiller arms are available from other sources.
There are several discussions regarding autopilots on this forum. Suggest you try a search.
Regards,
Quent Kinderman
Clairebuoyant, #132 -
@quent wrote:
Jim-
Regarding a below deck unit, Edson the steering unit manufacturer is pretty much opposed to attaching to the steering quadrant. Tiller arms are available from other sources.Really? I missed that one. The drive for the Autohelm that came on my Pearson was attached directly to the quadrant. Guess another foul up from the PO.
Any particular reason why Edson is opposed to attachment to the quadrant?
Skip
-
Hi Skip-
My understanding from talking to Edson guys at boatshow is that an autopilot drive puts a lot of force on the quadrant that it wasn’t designed for.. Their catalogue is pretty explicit about not doing it.
I seem to remember literature from some some autopilot company, maybe Autohelm or Navico that showed their product bolted to a quadrant so opinions differ. Maybe your PO was acting on the best availble information.
A good bronze tiller arm can be had for a couple hundred dollars and provides nice redundancy for the whole system. We mounted ours on the rudder shaft below the quadrant.
Quent -
I may have to think about this one. One one hand, it takes the same total force to move the rudder whether one does by the Edson cables or an AP drive arm. But, the cables are a pull/pull system and are connected to the quadrant at designated points so may better disperse the overall force than the AP attached at one point.
On a semi related issue, have you tested the emergency tiller? I hooked mine up while on the hard and can barely move the rudder due to resistance in the cables and steering system. I think that would have to be disconnected if circumstances required use of the tiller for any time at all.
-
Not much to think about really – if you hook the autopilot to the quadrant and the cables break, or loosen up and come off the quadrant or one of the pulleys, which happens all too frequently – you have no manual steering AND no autopilot. If you hook the autopilot to the tiller arm on the rudder post you can at least steer the boat thru the pilot. The chances of the tiller arm breaking, I would have to say, are slim to none given it’s size.
On a related note, at least on my boat – the keyway and key for the quadrant was long enough to catch the keyway in the quadrant. SO, I did not have to do a bolt through – which would have been a b***h to do given the size and material of the rudder post.
Just a thought
Alan— On Thu, 3/17/11, skipmac wrote:
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
While we’re talking about autopilots and possible failure points – it got me thinking about a blog I wrote while on my trip. It has to do with spares and advanced failure mode planning.
Hope you don’t mind…. it’s not that far off subject.“For months now I have been professing the need for spares. Not only for
your primary devices but also for your backup devices as well. Not only
do you need a Plan A for your primary device but you need a Plan A for
your backup devices also. When your primary device fails, breaks, gets
lost, falls overboard or you just plain forget how to use it, You need a
plan to fix, repair, find, retrieve or read instructions for that
device. The same holds true for your backup device as well because that now
becomes your primary device. So now you need to be able to recover from
the loss of use of that device as well. Get it?? So after 9 months and
close to 5000 miles, I have found out where my failings are (and trust
me there are many). The one that sticks out this morning is the failure
of the can opener. I can’t even begin to tell you how frustrating it is
to be offshore in 20+ knots of wind, seas running to 10 + feet and you
can hardly stand in one spot, to not be able to open a #*&^%G can
of beans. So let that be a lesson to all who go out to sea……. Must
be something in the tool box I can use to open that can………. a— On Thu, 3/17/11, skipmac wrote:
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
My guess would be that an accidental disconnect between the steering system and the rudder would be the only reason to use the emergency tiller. That would eliminate the friction.
In theory, the autopilot could replace the steering system but the only steering failure we have ever experienced was in the electronics rendering the autopilot useless..
Maybe you could attach lines to the emergency tiller to control it.
Best just to inspect and maintain primary steering system.
Quent -
Because of the difficulty of the emergency rudder operation, the next time I
take Pelican out of the water, I’ll be putting two pad eyes (one backing the
other) on the aft upper corner of the rudder. When I’m about to go
offshore, I’ll attach lines to the pad eyes and loop them over the stern
rail until (if) they’re needed. Then I can run them to the aft winches if
necessary.It will keep the cockpit clear of that huge pipe and whatever rigging is
required. I know someone had an eye welded to the emergency rudder so they
could use a block and tackle (or more properly, a handy billy) to assist in
the steering.Edson doesn’t want you to use the quadrant because it’s not designed for
that kind of loading. When you see the tiller arm, you’ll see what I’m
talking about. To connect to the quadrant means you’ll be piercing one of
the radial castings which will weaken it. Take Edson seriously. I suspect
they’ve seen that kind of failure.Bob
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 7:36 AM, quent wrote:
My guess would be that an accidental disconnect between the steering system
and the rudder would be the only reason to use the emergency tiller. That
would eliminate the friction.
In theory, the autopilot could replace the steering system but the only
steering failure we have ever experienced was in the electronics rendering
the autopilot useless..
Maybe you could attach lines to the emergency tiller to control it.
Best just to inspect and maintain primary steering system.
Quent_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Completely agree. Keeping the primary steering system in order always the best option but I do like to make sure the emergency system works. By that I mean it actually works and doesn’t just look good in port.
Like you, the only failures I have experienced were in the AP itself but have had friends that had to use the tiller before. In one case in a new Gulfstar 50 a part failed due to a bad casting that was undetectable until it broke. Hard to guard against that sort of failure.
-
-
-
I never liked the emergency tiller setup on the 424. One would think that
if the steering failed, it would happen in rough conditions. Having to open
up a 4″ hole in the cockpit sole to attach the steering tiller doesn’t sound
like a good idea. It seems that the rudder should have some kind of rubber
gasket that seals the hole when in use.I don’t know if you folks have tried to open the tiller plate but it’s a
bear. It’s a good itea to grease the threads every now and then.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
I have rigged the emergency tiller with tackle, but I sure hope I never have
to use this arrangement, especially single-handed. It’s there and it might
get me home, but …
I’m not sure there is any good solution to the emergency tiller for this
boat. That’s the bad news. The good news the reason the emergency tiller
is difficult is that the rudder is pretty robust. Beyond a major hole in
the hull, the worst situation I can think of when off-shore is the loss of
the rudder. That is an unlikely event with the 424 as long as the skeg
holds together.
With a balanced spade rudder an emergency tiller is very practical,
unfortunately it may have nothing to turn if something strikes the rudder.Rich is right about checking the deck plate for the emergency rudder. Mine
was seized and I had to replace it.On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:I never liked the emergency tiller setup on the 424. One would think that
if the steering failed, it would happen in rough conditions. Having to
open
up a 4″ hole in the cockpit sole to attach the steering tiller doesn’t
sound
like a good idea. It seems that the rudder should have some kind of rubber
gasket that seals the hole when in use.I don’t know if you folks have tried to open the tiller plate but it’s a
bear. It’s a good itea to grease the threads every now and then.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
My access plate is a pry-out arrangement instead of a screw-in one.
Must have been changed out by PO.As for sealing the hole when using the emergency tiller, how about a
towel stuffed in the gap. Nothing too fancy.Pete
On 3/18/2011 9:55 AM, John Stevenson wrote:
Quote:I have rigged the emergency tiller with tackle, but I sure hope I never have
to use this arrangement, especially single-handed. It’s there and it might
get me home, but …
I’m not sure there is any good solution to the emergency tiller for this
boat. That’s the bad news. The good news the reason the emergency tiller
is difficult is that the rudder is pretty robust. Beyond a major hole in
the hull, the worst situation I can think of when off-shore is the loss of
the rudder. That is an unlikely event with the 424 as long as the skeg
holds together.
With a balanced spade rudder an emergency tiller is very practical,
unfortunately it may have nothing to turn if something strikes the rudder.Rich is right about checking the deck plate for the emergency rudder. Mine
was seized and I had to replace it.On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Rich Carter wrote:
Quote:I never liked the emergency tiller setup on the 424. One would think that
if the steering failed, it would happen in rough conditions. Having to
open
up a 4″ hole in the cockpit sole to attach the steering tiller doesn’t
sound
like a good idea. It seems that the rudder should have some kind of rubber
gasket that seals the hole when in use.I don’t know if you folks have tried to open the tiller plate but it’s a
bear. It’s a good itea to grease the threads every now and then.Rich
Quote:
Original Message
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
-
Quent/ALL:
I hope to replace my chainplates this summer. Did you replace yours with
the mast stepped? If so, can you give me any advice or the procedure by
which you replaced the plates, and how you supported the rig in their absence?
thanks, BILL~~~ ~ (_~~ (_~ ~ ~ fair winds ~ ~ (_
Capt Bill Tice, aboard s/v CHARISMA_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Support the rig with the head and back stays and use the halyards to the
side. Replace opposite chain plates two at a time. As long as there’s no
real strain on the rig, you’ll be fine.Call Hayn (Hayn.com) – they have a high pressure water cutter and they can
cut new ones pretty quickly. Talk to Fred and tell him I sent you. They
are really nice people. If you need a company to order them, I can do it
for you – I’m on their books as tax exempt.Bob
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 1:33 PM, wrote:
Quent/ALL:
I hope to replace my chainplates this summer. Did you replace yours with
the mast stepped? If so, can you give me any advice or the procedure by
which you replaced the plates, and how you supported the rig in their
absence?
thanks, BILL~~~ ~ (_~~ (_~ ~ ~ fair winds ~ ~ (_
Capt Bill Tice, aboard s/v CHARISMA_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
Thanks, Bob. I suspected that procedure but needed the reassurance. And
thanks for the offer of help w/HAYN; I just may do that and appreciate it.
BILLBILL TICE~in residence ~*I*I*TREEHOUSE *I*I*I*~ Smith Mt. Lake, VA
In a message dated 3/19/2011 1:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:Support the rig with the head and back stays and use the halyards to the
side. Replace opposite chain plates two at a time. As long as there’s no
real strain on the rig, you’ll be fine.Call Hayn (Hayn.com) – they have a high pressure water cutter and they can
cut new ones pretty quickly. Talk to Fred and tell him I sent you. They
are really nice people. If you need a company to order them, I can do it
for you – I’m on their books as tax exempt.Bob
On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 1:33 PM, wrote:
Quent/ALL:
I hope to replace my chainplates this summer. Did you replace yours
with
the mast stepped? If so, can you give me any advice or the procedure by
which you replaced the plates, and how you supported the rig in their
absence?
thanks, BILL~~~ ~ (_~~ (_~ ~ ~ fair winds ~ ~ (_
Capt Bill Tice, aboard s/v CHARISMA_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Pearson 424 Hull #8
http://thesailinglife.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
_______________________________________________
maillist mailing listhttps://pearson424.org/mailman/listinfo/maillist_pearson424.org
Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.